Why Not?

alaskabushman · January 16, 2013, 04:01 AM

The other day I was playing around in the the reloading shed, and I necked a .44 mag case down and stoked it with a .357 bullet. A peek in the reloading book shows that case capacity should be slightly less than the .357 Maximum. My question is this...Why have I not seen this before? I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this work, but I've never even heard of a wildcat that looked like this. I think it would be a pretty good cartridge personally, you get the capacity of the .44 mag with a smaller faster bullet (load it with 180 grain bullets?) that still has lots of oomph, all within the .357/.44 cartridge length. I think it would be a decent load for black bear. Out of a rifle barrel I can imagine 30-30 velocity would be easily attainable while chucking a bigger bullet. Thoughts?

WeedWacker · January 16, 2013, 04:13 AM

I'd take it in a lever/revolver combo. Might even replace my .41 mag...

I don't see it filling any necessary niche, though. I hear of some people having .357 mag for black bear and if they needed bigger the .44mag is just so available (kinda) it would seem strange to have another cartridge in another caliber. Not enough people would be interested and a necked cartridge makes for more complicated loading which might limit this cartridge to only serious reloaders and even then as a novelty. I think it would be an absolute hoot to play with, though.

alex0535 · January 16, 2013, 04:33 AM

I don't know if you will get .30-30 velocities unless you use the lightest .357 round you can find but it should have enough punch to kill a black bear.

Want to post a picture of it just to show what it looks like? I can imagine but I kinda want to see it.

L_Killkenny · January 16, 2013, 09:41 AM

You can get close to .30-30 velocities with compariable bullet weights in a standard .357 lever action, sure the OP's idea would push it over the top.

But the OP's idea is a non starter. It wouldn't work well in revolvers so it would be very platform specific and if you want a rimmed, bottle neck cartridge with .30-30 power levels..........Get a .30-30.

Hunter Customs · January 16, 2013, 10:27 AM

I believe L Killkenny is correct about the bottle neck cartridge in revolvers.
It seems that I recall it being tried before and the bottle neck cartridge wants to back out of it's cyclinder chamber and tie the gun up.

Also the point WeedWacker made about reloading would be another thing many would not want to contend with when it comes to revolver ammo.

Now in a rifle it might be something fun to play with.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

bedlamite · January 16, 2013, 10:35 AM

357/44 Bain & Davis

**Mike Irwin** · January 16, 2013, 10:38 AM

That's the one. I couldn't remember the name... Bain & Davis.

alaskabushman · January 16, 2013, 12:59 PM

.22 Jet, 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, 44-40...all bottlenecked cartridges used in revolvers. Granted, all lower pressure, and most have fallen out of regular use. I will take a picture, it looks slightly different than the 357-44 Bain. I figured I couldnt be the first individual to think up something like this. I'm not proposing it be made into a new factory round...too many to keep track of already, another rimmed cartridge would go relativity unnoticed...

Scorch · January 16, 2013, 01:16 PM

It is called the 357-44 Bains-Davis, and was developed for use in revolvers, typically 44 Mag revolvers with a 357 barrel installed. They avoided the issues caused by cases backing out and/or having to fit a new cylinder by fitting a plastic ring around the neck of the cartridge to totally fill the 44 Mag chamber, but there have been some made fron 357 revolvers with no issues (the straight-wall case does not back out like a tapered case would). It is a hot little number, one of my favorites. You can get almost 35 Remington performance out of a revolver.

Lotsa people make lotsa wildcats. I built a single-shot rifle for a guy about a year ago chambered for 22-44 (44 Mag case necked down to 22 cal). He had a reamer and dies made, and it shoots great. But there are all kinds of ways to get your jollies, just sit and think a bit.

**Mike Irwin** · January 16, 2013, 01:27 PM

The .22 Jet was very notable for its problems in binding cylinders on S&W Model 53 revolvers.

alaskabushman · January 16, 2013, 02:03 PM

Thanks Scorch, just the info I was looking for. I figured velocity would be right up there with some classic rifle cartridges. I was looking at some heavy Buffalo Bore .357 mag and noticed their posted velocities, out of a carbine barrel they were stepping on the 30-30's toes. The advantage I see in this is a higher capacity rifle, and with a cartridge like the one discussed here a 10-12 round 35 Rem? Sounds like a cool idea to me.

Scorch · January 16, 2013, 03:17 PM

I have modified Marlin 1894 44 Mag lever actions to 357-44 B&D, it turns it into a great handling little rifle with plenty of power. In a Winchester 92, it would be absolutely fantastic. I had a Contender years ago in 357 Herrett, and the 357 B&D outdoes the 357 Herrett by about 100 fps with 180 gr bullets out of a pistol-length barrel.

alex0535 · January 16, 2013, 03:44 PM

I have a .17 HMR revolver which qualifies as a bottle-necked cartridge, its a Taurus Tracker. Haven't had any problems. .44 mag to to .357 is a bit of a different animal.

steveNChunter · January 20, 2013, 10:58 PM

I would love to see some ballistics on this cartridge in a lever-action rifle. Sounds like it would make a dandy short range deer caliber. But I already have a .35rem so I doubt it would really fill any void

January 16, 2013, 04:01 AM	#1
alaskabushman Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Posts: 45	Why Not? The other day I was playing around in the the reloading shed, and I necked a .44 mag case down and stoked it with a .357 bullet. A peek in the reloading book shows that case capacity should be slightly less than the .357 Maximum. My question is this...Why have I not seen this before? I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this work, but I've never even heard of a wildcat that looked like this. I think it would be a pretty good cartridge personally, you get the capacity of the .44 mag with a smaller faster bullet (load it with 180 grain bullets?) that still has lots of oomph, all within the .357/.44 cartridge length. I think it would be a decent load for black bear. Out of a rifle barrel I can imagine 30-30 velocity would be easily attainable while chucking a bigger bullet. Thoughts?

January 16, 2013, 04:13 AM	#2
WeedWacker Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2006 Location: Body: Clarkston, Washington. Soul: LaCrosse, Wisconsin Posts: 1,458	I'd take it in a lever/revolver combo. Might even replace my .41 mag... I don't see it filling any necessary niche, though. I hear of some people having .357 mag for black bear and if they needed bigger the .44mag is just so available (kinda) it would seem strange to have another cartridge in another caliber. Not enough people would be interested and a necked cartridge makes for more complicated loading which might limit this cartridge to only serious reloaders and even then as a novelty. I think it would be an absolute hoot to play with, though. __________________ - Weed 9mm vs 45 ACP? The answer is 42. Last edited by WeedWacker; January 16, 2013 at 04:22 AM.

January 16, 2013, 10:35 AM	#6
bedlamite Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Location: WI Posts: 980	357/44 Bain & Davis __________________ A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.

January 16, 2013, 10:38 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,109	That's the one. I couldn't remember the name... Bain & Davis. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 16, 2013, 01:16 PM	#9
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 11,029	It is called the 357-44 Bains-Davis, and was developed for use in revolvers, typically 44 Mag revolvers with a 357 barrel installed. They avoided the issues caused by cases backing out and/or having to fit a new cylinder by fitting a plastic ring around the neck of the cartridge to totally fill the 44 Mag chamber, but there have been some made fron 357 revolvers with no issues (the straight-wall case does not back out like a tapered case would). It is a hot little number, one of my favorites. You can get almost 35 Remington performance out of a revolver. Lotsa people make lotsa wildcats. I built a single-shot rifle for a guy about a year ago chambered for 22-44 (44 Mag case necked down to 22 cal). He had a reamer and dies made, and it shoots great. But there are all kinds of ways to get your jollies, just sit and think a bit. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Taylor Machine

January 16, 2013, 04:33 AM	#3
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 609	I don't know if you will get .30-30 velocities unless you use the lightest .357 round you can find but it should have enough punch to kill a black bear. Want to post a picture of it just to show what it looks like? I can imagine but I kinda want to see it.

January 16, 2013, 09:41 AM	#4
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,553	You can get close to .30-30 velocities with compariable bullet weights in a standard .357 lever action, sure the OP's idea would push it over the top. But the OP's idea is a non starter. It wouldn't work well in revolvers so it would be very platform specific and if you want a rimmed, bottle neck cartridge with .30-30 power levels..........Get a .30-30.

January 16, 2013, 10:27 AM	#5
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 1,253	I believe L Killkenny is correct about the bottle neck cartridge in revolvers. It seems that I recall it being tried before and the bottle neck cartridge wants to back out of it's cyclinder chamber and tie the gun up. Also the point WeedWacker made about reloading would be another thing many would not want to contend with when it comes to revolver ammo. Now in a rifle it might be something fun to play with. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

January 16, 2013, 12:59 PM	#8
alaskabushman Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Posts: 45	.22 Jet, 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, 44-40...all bottlenecked cartridges used in revolvers. Granted, all lower pressure, and most have fallen out of regular use. I will take a picture, it looks slightly different than the 357-44 Bain. I figured I couldnt be the first individual to think up something like this. I'm not proposing it be made into a new factory round...too many to keep track of already, another rimmed cartridge would go relativity unnoticed...

January 16, 2013, 01:27 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,109	The .22 Jet was very notable for its problems in binding cylinders on S&W Model 53 revolvers. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 16, 2013, 02:03 PM	#11
alaskabushman Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Posts: 45	Thanks Scorch, just the info I was looking for. I figured velocity would be right up there with some classic rifle cartridges. I was looking at some heavy Buffalo Bore .357 mag and noticed their posted velocities, out of a carbine barrel they were stepping on the 30-30's toes. The advantage I see in this is a higher capacity rifle, and with a cartridge like the one discussed here a 10-12 round 35 Rem? Sounds like a cool idea to me.

January 16, 2013, 03:17 PM	#12
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 11,029	I have modified Marlin 1894 44 Mag lever actions to 357-44 B&D, it turns it into a great handling little rifle with plenty of power. In a Winchester 92, it would be absolutely fantastic. I had a Contender years ago in 357 Herrett, and the 357 B&D outdoes the 357 Herrett by about 100 fps with 180 gr bullets out of a pistol-length barrel. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Taylor Machine

January 16, 2013, 03:44 PM	#13
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 609	I have a .17 HMR revolver which qualifies as a bottle-necked cartridge, its a Taurus Tracker. Haven't had any problems. .44 mag to to .357 is a bit of a different animal.

January 20, 2013, 10:58 PM	#14
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 430	I would love to see some ballistics on this cartridge in a lever-action rifle. Sounds like it would make a dandy short range deer caliber. But I already have a .35rem so I doubt it would really fill any void __________________ *I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.* -Philippians 4:13 (KJV)