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Old January 16, 2013, 07:21 AM   #26
nate45
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I'm for complete and unfettered gun rights.

My opinion is, if the government abused any part of the identity process, tried confiscation, etc it would be time for drastic action.
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Old January 16, 2013, 07:56 AM   #27
patriotic
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There is no compromise for a right. When a right becomes conditional it is no longer a right but a permission and as such permissions can be taken away.

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
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Old January 16, 2013, 11:13 AM   #28
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I'm not right. It's our right.

There should be no laws passed in any situation that would reduce or infringe upon the RIGHTS of law abiding citizens. EVER!
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Old January 16, 2013, 11:22 AM   #29
mayosligo
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Nate. They do not require me to have an ID to vote so I do not think I need one to own a firearm. It's the constitution you know.
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Old January 16, 2013, 01:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mayosligo View Post
Nate. They do not require me to have an ID to vote so I do not think I need one to own a firearm. It's the constitution you know.
Voting is not a right.

I strongly suggest that everyone read John Locke - Second Treatise of Government. It's probably the most complete discussion of man's "natural right" to self determine his own government.

It's free on Amazon Kindle I'd you take the unannotated version.

This was a core document to the founding fathers.

It's not a particularly easy read, but this isn't a particularly easy time.

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Old January 16, 2013, 01:43 PM   #31
Al Norris
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Sorry mrbatchelor, voting is a right. It is a political right. That what the difference between Privileges (political rights) and Immunities (natural rights) were, at the time of the founding.

Locke's 2nd Treatise points this all out.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:24 PM   #32
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Let's stop bidding against ourselves. Some things we won't like might well come out of this, and we need to have "our place at the table" to be in a position to try to influence the outcome. But it's not useful to concede ground.
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Old January 16, 2013, 07:56 PM   #33
mrbatchelor
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Originally Posted by Al Norris View Post
Sorry mrbatchelor, voting is a right. It is a political right. That what the difference between Privileges (political rights) and Immunities (natural rights) were, at the time of the founding.

Locke's 2nd Treatise points this all out.
Ok. I'll accept this distinction, but point out that even in your use of vernacular you felt the need to differentiate privilege from immunities. In 21st century NA English that's a very subtle distinction.

We still use the word "privileges" in much the same sense. But by the word "rights" we generally refer to immutables. After all rights in most people's minds are immutable.

But, as pointed out, linguistic hair spitting is for another day. Right now we desperately need to stop those who are our opponents. When the air is clear then we can pontificate as friends.

And my original assertion was aimed at the fact that individual states set up voting laws. And whole classes of people were originally disqualified.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:09 PM   #34
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To get back to the original topic- I'm a fairly young guy, and unfamiliar with the process of encouraging our representatives to oppose the bills that were in the OP. Isn't there a link through the NRA?
I'd like for me and my friends to be able to influence our reps, since we still retain that right.
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Old January 17, 2013, 02:23 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shredder4286
To get back to the original topic- I'm a fairly young guy, and unfamiliar with the process of encouraging our representatives to oppose the bills that were in the OP. Isn't there a link through the NRA?
I'd like for me and my friends to be able to influence our reps, since we still retain that right.
To find your Senators, go here: http://www.senate.gov/general/contac...nators_cfm.cfm

To find your Representative, go here: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/
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Old January 17, 2013, 03:23 PM   #36
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Alright. Thanks a lot. Those government officials need to hear from us. I'll do my part.
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Old January 17, 2013, 05:14 PM   #37
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You're welcome & yes, they do need to hear from us. Even if all that really happens is some staffer puts your email into the "Yes" or "No" piles, somebody is counting. Counting and trying to figure out what will happen come re-election time.
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Old January 17, 2013, 06:00 PM   #38
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113th Congress: House Bills 223-306

H.R.226 -- Support Assault Firearms Elimination and Reduction for our Streets Act (This one allows tax credit for surrendering an assault weapon, but only if it's lawfully possessed. Soooo, ummmm, felons in possession are NOT being encouraged to give up their assault weapons. )

H.R.227 -- Buyback Our Safety Act -- Establishes a gun buyback program in the AG's office. (Gee, I guess all of the buying panic dried up the supply of ARs that Holder needed to fill the cartel's orders.)

H.R.236 -- Crackdown on Deadbeat Gun Dealers Act of 2013

H.R.238 -- Fire Sale Loophole Closing Act

H.R.274 -- Mental Health First Act of 2013 (not strictly firearms related, but we're seeing a whole lotta mental health talk tied together with firearms talk these days)
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Old January 17, 2013, 07:19 PM   #39
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Done and done, Spats. Thanks.
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Old January 17, 2013, 07:48 PM   #40
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Nate, obviously there are some possible compromises. The trouble with the FOID concept is that licensing of given rights, eliminated it as a right. Also, it creates a clear path for McArthyism (sp?). We don't need ids which establish a vehicle for political selection of gun owners.

We would be much better off controlling ourselves by the NRA or similar making a trained gun owner program and promoting it to gun ranges, gun buyers and gun sellers as a way to ensure their customers are legal, safe shooters and gun buyers who can be reached by contacting the NRA. I'm thinking this private organization creates a basic training level, creates online buyers and sellers who are "known" even if only by the NRA and addresses most issues of being screwed by buyers, sellers and some untrained jackwad shooting next to you pointing his gun at you.

I'm thinking that the NRA,etc could work this into basic training classes.
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Old January 17, 2013, 08:05 PM   #41
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I posted this in a thread but due to the fact there were already several threads on the topic it was locked. This seems a fitting thread for it and I invite your comments.

1. We gun owners need to be responsible to keep our guns locked up safe when not in use (carry is in use) and out of the hands of the wrong people.
2. If your guns are stolen it needs to be reported immediately after the theft is recognized. All gun owners should have a personal inventory of their guns to include pictures and serial numbers for just such an event.
3. If your gun gets into the wrong hands do to your negligence (ie. Leaving a loaded gun unsecured around untrained children or someone known to be suicidal/homicidal, forgetting a gun on a bench at the range etc) you should be held accountable and be placed on restriction or possibly jail time determined by the courts based on the facts in your individual case.

4. So called straw or straw man buyers (A person who knowingly and willfully purchases a gun for someone who legally can not own a firearm) should serve a minimum of 2 years per gun bought and sold determined by the reason the 2nd party can't buy a gun of their own.
5. If a crime is committed with a gun sold by the straw buyer they should then be sentenced to serve an additional time equal to the perpetrator of any crime committed with that gun when the 2nd party is convicted.

The only form of gun control I will support is one where law abiding citizens take control of their guns.
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Old January 20, 2013, 11:39 PM   #42
Ghost1958
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It makes me gringe. None of what you propose will do anything to prevent violent acts by criminals with a firearm.
Violent criminals dont use straw men the either steal them or way more often get them from other criminals whos area of operation is dealing illegally in guns.

With being allowed one round of ammo in a gun already be proposed in Mass and a host of other senseless regs this talk of giving something to get something makes no sense.

If we give an inch they take a mile. Even when we dont give an inch they try to take a mile and have in New York.

Simply put no law or reg will make one whit of difference about stopping violent crime commited with firearms. Period.
All they do is saddle the rest of us with unconstitutional, ignorant, violations of our rights.
And no when our back is finally firmly against the wall there will be those who will rise up and say No further and back it up and those who will sit on the sidelines wringing their hands or just stick them in the air and give up.
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Old January 21, 2013, 01:23 PM   #43
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So called straw or straw man buyers (A person who knowingly and willfully purchases a gun for someone who legally can not own a firearm) should serve a minimum of 2 years per gun bought and sold determined by the reason the 2nd party can't buy a gun of their own.
That's already federal law. The potential sentence is up to ten years.

Does it ever get enforced? No. As such, the law has no teeth and no deterrence value.

Everything else you're suggesting only punishes the law-abiding.
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Old January 21, 2013, 04:47 PM   #44
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5. If a crime is committed with a gun sold by the straw buyer they should then be sentenced to serve an additional time equal to the perpetrator of any crime committed with that gun when the 2nd party is convicted.
And this one could be called Conspiracy to Commit...
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:00 PM   #45
mrbatchelor
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
That's already federal law. The potential sentence is up to ten years.

Does it ever get enforced? No. As such, the law has no teeth and no deterrence value.

Everything else you're suggesting only punishes the law-abiding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDandy View Post
And this one could be called Conspiracy to Commit...

Wow! Sounds like we already have pretty reasonable gun control laws in place doesn't it?
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:23 PM   #46
OEF-Vet
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BINGO and mrbatchelor gets it.

Also let's not forget most people already lock their door when the leave the house and every gun owner I know keeps records of their arms already. Also their are already civil liability laws in place as well as reckless endangerment.

I proposed nothing that wasn't already in place except additional time for straw buyers for crimes committed with guns they bought.

The point is we can't give knee jerk reactions. We have to calm down, be rational and not give an inch.

Last edited by OEF-Vet; January 21, 2013 at 07:19 PM.
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Old January 22, 2013, 03:21 PM   #47
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Does anyone have any updates or knowledge on potential California legislation regarding a further AWB?
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Old January 23, 2013, 02:34 PM   #48
shortwave
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Quote:
Wow! Sounds like we already have pretty reasonable gun control laws in place doesn't it?
Yes we do. Just need to enforce the gun laws we currently have to their fullest extent.

Quote:
The point is we can't give knee jerk reactions. We have to calm down, be rational and not give an inch.
OEF-Vet,

I hope you don't mind that don't mind that I emboldened "and not give an inch" in your post.

The reason I did this was:

The whole 'sham' the public is being sold by our President as well as the rest of the anti-gun polticians/society in that their AWB's are a solution or in fact, a part of the solution for the problem at hand....problem being...innocent kids being killed in schools.

We can stack gun laws from here to China, we can add to or take away from existing laws, or we can keep them the same...but when it comes to really addressing the issue at hand, which again is keeping our children from being murdered at school, tighter school security along with having armed people in our schools to kill the psycho hopefully before he/she gets started is the only way it will stop.

These attacks are being committed in 'No Gun' areas by psycho's hell bent on killing people that are completely defenseless. The psycho's are mentally deranged but they are smart enough to choose 'No Gun' zones as their targets where they can do the most damage with no resistance. In other words...during one of these school shootings, the psycho is in complete control of the situation and literally has the total control of everyone's lives he comes in contact with during his shooting spree until someone that's armed(usually LE) shows up at the scene.

It just seems so painfully obvious that again, these psycho's are smart enough to choose 'No Gun' zones, which just happen to be schools full of innocent children, that if we instill a program that enables firearms in our schools that this would stop or severely cut down these psycho's 'carte blanche' mindset of going into a school and having a smorgasbord of defenseless victims.

These psycho's are not going into police stations or places where it is known that there will most likely be firearms in which the targeted victims will be armed. Why? Cause their killing spree would be very short lived and they know it.

In short, an AWB of any sort, doctored up , written however and so eloquently sold to the public by this or any other President and his anti-gun cohorts, is simply again a sham to the public and not addressing the issue at hand and this is what we need to remember, first and foremost when the above people are using these tragedies as an excuse to promote their ant-gun agendas. These AWB's will simply make no difference and we can write and stack gun restrictive bills from here to China and they simply will not work.

Last edited by shortwave; January 23, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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Old January 27, 2013, 06:56 PM   #49
Nick S.
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Just sent 10 separate emails To DC. Also, just got some good news here in NY. NYS Sheriffs Dept came out standing against a whole bunch of of the Govs. latest assault on our gun rights. I'm going to call them tomorrow & thank them.
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