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Old January 12, 2013, 11:48 AM   #1
Cascade1911
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What is possesion?

I'm trying to sift through the various bill proposed in NY. I'm looking at S1810-2013: Enacts the Gun Trafficking Prevention Act


Quote:
S 265.18 CRIMINAL POSSESSION OF A WEAPON BY A MINOR.
1. A PERSON IS GUILTY OF CRIMINAL POSSESSION OF A WEAPON BY A MINOR
WHEN, BEING UNDER EIGHTEEN YEARS OF AGE, HE OR SHE POSSESSES ANY
FIREARM, RIFLE OR SHOTGUN.
EXPLANATION--Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets
[ ] is old law to be omitted.
LBD02242-01-3

S. 1810 2
2. THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY TO ANY PERSON WHO
POSSESSES A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN AND IS THE HOLDER OF A HUNTING LICENSE OR
PERMIT ISSUED PURSUANT TO ARTICLE ELEVEN OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW AND USED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SUCH ARTICLE.
CRIMINAL POSSESSION OF A WEAPON BY A MINOR IS A CLASS D FELONY.
What is the legal definition of "POSSESSES"? Specifically, Can the minor be in possession at a range if he is holding/ shooting a firearm while accompanied by an adult?
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:06 PM   #2
Spats McGee
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It's not as simple as, "here's a legal definition." To figure out what "possession" is under NY law in this context, you'd need to look: (a) at the current NY criminal code to see if there's a "definitions" section, and (b) the case law out of NY to see if its highest court has expounded on what it means to possess something.
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:16 PM   #3
dlb435
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It means that if you own a gun and your minor child takes that gun and uses it for any criminal purpose, you're guilty.
Got kids, got guns....either lock up the guns or the kids.
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Old January 12, 2013, 03:30 PM   #4
sigcurious
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While I agree with Spats, I'm going to go out on a limb. Possession in this case(or at least the intent of the law) would likely be anytime a minor has the item in question under their control(direct or indirect) with no supervision by a legal person of the age of majority(possibly even with supervision), unless exempted by having a hunting license.

Although from the reading of that bill, its unfortunate that it seems to be a feel good bill designed to punish mistakes, indiscretions and values different than the writers, rather than prevent or reduce crime. The whole minor in possession being a felony(because Little Johnny who borrowed a the family car, who's parent(s) left a firearm in the trunk, deserves a felony charge... ) and having state financial aid repercussions seems overly punitive. Particularly when the other portions about "gun trafficking" are duplicates of things that are already illegal.
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Old January 12, 2013, 04:25 PM   #5
Aguila Blanca
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It means what they want it to mean.

In discussing convicted felons, possession means even picking up a firearm, loaded or unloaded. If it's in their hands, it's "possession." And if they happen to live in a place where another resident (family member, roommate, etc.) legally has firearms, unless said firearms are ALWAYS locked up so the ex-felon can't access them, he is deemed to be in "constructive possession" of firearms.

I have read that, as the term applies in NY state, it means the same for you and me as it does for a felon. In other words, if I as a non-resident of NY were to visit NY state, I am not allowed to handle or shoot a firearm (unless I am there for a sanctioned competition, pursuant to NY state law). I'm not 100 percent sure that's what the law says, but that's what I have read.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; January 16, 2013 at 10:26 AM. Reason: typo
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Old January 12, 2013, 06:40 PM   #6
hermannr
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Actually, NY also goes with constructive possession...you have your kid, and your weapon, in your car...you go in to pay for you gas at the gas station...while you are in paying for your gas, your kid is in the car, you kid is now in "possession" of your firearm.

And yes, if you do not have a permit under PL 400.00(2), you cannot even handle a pistol in a gun store or the range.
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Old January 13, 2013, 10:19 AM   #7
Spats McGee
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It's not a matter of recognizing either "possession" or "constructive possession." As far as I know, every state recognizes both.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:57 PM   #8
Cascade1911
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@dlb435 It means nothing of the kind. Read the bill.

OK, let me try this a different way. I'm not asking about if the kid gets a gun from the closet and shoots someone or leave the gun in a car and a kid gets hold of it.

This bill does not address the person that let the minor gain possession.

My question is: Can the above bill be construed to mean that a minor holding a gun, even though attended by a parent or guardian, is in criminal possession (excepting if the child had a hunting license)? The way I read it the answer would be yes.
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Old January 15, 2013, 11:29 PM   #9
TPAW
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Cascade asks:
Quote:
What is possesion?
Query the laws of your state. If inclined to do so, go to the nearest law enforcemt agency in your area, and see what they tell you. If that does not satisfy your question, speak to an ADA, or DA, and get the answer from the horses mouth. It's all on the books, for whatever that's worth?
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:15 AM   #10
bird_dog
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Quote:
And yes, if you do not have a permit under PL 400.00(2), you cannot even handle a pistol in a gun store or the range.
You can, if the range has a range officer. Even here in NY.
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