World-wide, Gun Bans Breed Defiance

**Al Norris** · January 16, 2013, 02:09 AM

I have always pretty much figured that if it actually came to registration, or heavens forbid, confiscation, that most in the US would roll over. It appears I may be wrong.

According to an article by J.D. Tuccille, world-wide, and even here in the US, defiance of radical gun restrictions are the natural order.

Gun Restrictions Have Always Bred Defiance, Black Markets - Reason.com

A very good article that appears to honestly say that people just won't follow unjust law.

Ben Towe · January 16, 2013, 02:40 AM

Thanks for sharing that, Al. Very interesting read. Those numbers raised my eyebrows!

David White · January 16, 2013, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Norris

I have always pretty much figured that if it actually came to registration, or heavens forbid, confiscation, that most in the US would roll over. It appears I may be wrong.

Speak for yourself.
I have NO intentions of "rolling over".
I also have no qualms about who will be "playing dead" either.

(Ill give you a hint; it won't be me)

klyph3 · January 16, 2013, 03:36 AM

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

Dr Big Bird PhD · January 16, 2013, 03:54 AM

I just read this stuff.

And I feel like the crazy person in the room who thinks bans don't work.

But they don't...

klyph3 · January 16, 2013, 04:07 AM

Name one prohibition that worked. Just one.

iraiam · January 16, 2013, 04:54 AM

At least I know I won't be alone, I already have a great deal of contempt for our government at large, they are making it worse on almost a daily basis.

Hunterpeaks · January 16, 2013, 12:12 PM

"Effective enforcement of the alcohol ban during the Prohibition Era proved to be very difficult and led to widespread flouting of the law. The lack of a solid popular consensus for the ban resulted in the growth of vast criminal organizations, including the modern American Mafia, and various other criminal cliques. Widespread disregard of the law also generated rampant corruption among politicians and within police forces."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibi..._United_States

MLeake · January 16, 2013, 12:16 PM

My ancestors made a good bit of lucre back when alcohol was banned. (Shifty Sicilians, oh my...) Seems many of their customers were the wealthy and the politically connected, too.

Lessons:

1 - Bans don't work.

2 - Bans are for the little people.

**Tom Servo** · January 16, 2013, 01:47 PM

Quote:

I have always pretty much figured that if it actually came to registration, or heavens forbid, confiscation, that most in the US would roll over. It appears I may be wrong.

Will they rise up in armed defiance? Nope. Will they take political action? Not for the most part.

But, will all the guns get turned in? Not if the historical trend holds. Canada, Australia, and the UK are estimated to average a 20% compliance rate with their bans.

I went shooting in Victoria in 1994, and there were a lot of guns that came out when nobody was looking. Most folks admitted to owning guns off the registry. It was routinely flaunted.

My sister and her husband were in Cairo during the revolution a couple of years back, and when the police absconded, pretty much everyone in the neighborhood started digging guns out of the closet they'd "forgotten" they had.

The same holds true in places like New York and Maryland. Guns may be turned into a dirty little secret, but they'll still be there.

Strafer Gott · January 16, 2013, 02:56 PM

That^^^ for sure. +1

papaul · January 16, 2013, 03:44 PM

good article, thanks for linking it

papaul · January 16, 2013, 03:46 PM

wow, I know I tend to be a lurker, but I thought I had more posts than that!

Dr Big Bird PhD · January 16, 2013, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Will they rise up in armed defiance? Nope. Will they take political action? Not for the most part.

Erm.... I'm afraid this might not be entirely true.

I have nothing to argue from or with, but I just don't see it ending "peacefully"

hermannr · January 17, 2013, 12:32 AM

Well, at least in Canada, they got tired enough of wasting money on something that obviously did not work, they actually elected a PM that actively campaigned on removing the long gun registration.

Too bad he hasn't mannaged to do the same with handguns.

raimius · January 17, 2013, 05:00 PM

Wow, I didn't realize compliance rates were THAT low, across so many places.

pturner67 · January 17, 2013, 05:12 PM

I'm not defiant. The current government is. I have the 2nd Amendment on my side. In that, it is very clear what is and is not allowed.

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

Oxford Dictionary's definition of infringe:

1 actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.):

2 act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on

The government has no legal right to take away or limit in this case. Therefor, any law created to limit my rights is an unconstitutional law by a defiant government.

Strafer Gott · January 17, 2013, 05:47 PM

We can learn much from our neighbors to the north. Raising hell ain't it.
I just know we can make it through many more media cycles without loosing our cool. Even 911 slipped the media attention span relatively quickly.
Use the courts and money to slow this freight train down, and let the anti's wear themselves to a frazzle. We ought to know about the fleeting focus of the media by now.

johnwilliamson062 · January 17, 2013, 06:11 PM

There is a movie where a person rents a gun in Japan for 6 hours or something then returns it after using it to kill someone. I thought that had to be made up, then did some research and found that for a considerable time in post-war Japan there were in fact illegal gun rentals for carrying out crimes. Craziest criminal behavior or economic market I ever heard of, well with the exception of women's hand bags.

I have heard that support of a "revolution" in the colonies in the days before "the shot heard 'round the world" hovered around 5%. Once it was apparent armed conflict was coming and there was no avoiding it, that number grew very quickly.

Prior to the Civil War it seems there were similar although not as low numbers.

We have probably all seen figures for percentage of Muslims that are "radicalized" yet we have two wars and many more theaters of operation(most of which aren't going so well). Before we go in the numbers usually hover around the 15%, then as soon as US troops land they soar.

A small minority can force widespread conflict.

Anyone need a diplomat?

KyJim · January 17, 2013, 11:02 PM

If they ever passed a ban, I would sell every single gun I own before the ban went into effect. I would expect a lot of us here to do the same thing.

**Tom Servo** · January 18, 2013, 01:19 AM

Quote:

I have nothing to argue from or with, but I just don't see it ending "peacefully"

You might see small-scale flareups, but anything approaching organized resistance is unlikely.

Jeff Knox observed that around 6% of gun owners participate in even the most rudimentary political activism. We can't even agree on a political candidate. Why should we expect a large group to unite under a single banner?

More daunting to this ragtag group would be the fact that they would be branded as terrorists. They'd lose touch with their families, their homes, their possessions, and many would die. They wouldn't be remembered as heroes or martyrs. The media would paint them as unhinged lunatics, and the end result would be the implied justification for even more repressive laws.

If the average American can't even be troubled to vote, how can we expect them to take those kinds of risks?

We're far better off keeping such bans from happening in the first place.

MLeake · January 18, 2013, 12:49 PM

I agree.

Look how the Average American probably views the Branch Davidian or Ruby Ridge incidents. Most probably don't even remember them. Very few would think of them as unjustified violence by federal agents, but they were.

In both cases, arresting the primary targets when they were not surrounded by family and friends would have been feasible - in the case of Randy Weaver, he unknowingly had stopped to offer assistance to a couple feds whom he thought had suffered a vehicle breakdown.

Bad tactical decisions were made, unnecessary gunfights were initiated, and innocent parties (women and kids) were killed in both incidents.

And Joe Blow has no idea...

January 16, 2013, 02:09 AM	#1
Al Norris Staff Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 8,741	World-wide, Gun Bans Breed Defiance I have always pretty much figured that if it actually came to registration, or heavens forbid, confiscation, that most in the US would roll over. It appears I may be wrong. According to an article by J.D. Tuccille, world-wide, and even here in the US, defiance of radical gun restrictions are the natural order. Gun Restrictions Have Always Bred Defiance, Black Markets - Reason.com A very good article that appears to honestly say that people just won't follow unjust law. __________________ Listings of the Current 2A Cases: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416973

January 16, 2013, 02:40 AM	#2
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 974	Thanks for sharing that, Al. Very interesting read. Those numbers raised my eyebrows! __________________ I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.-Thomas Jefferson I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.-Euripides

January 16, 2013, 03:54 AM	#5
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 656	I just read this stuff. And I feel like the crazy person in the room who thinks bans don't work. But they don't... __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

January 16, 2013, 04:54 AM	#7
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 401	At least I know I won't be alone, I already have a great deal of contempt for our government at large, they are making it worse on almost a daily basis. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

January 16, 2013, 12:12 PM	#8
Hunterpeaks Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Posts: 20	Prohibibition: Highest crime rate in USA ever. "Effective enforcement of the alcohol ban during the Prohibition Era proved to be very difficult and led to widespread flouting of the law. The lack of a solid popular consensus for the ban resulted in the growth of vast criminal organizations, including the modern American Mafia, and various other criminal cliques. Widespread disregard of the law also generated rampant corruption among politicians and within police forces." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibi..._United_States

January 16, 2013, 03:36 AM	#4
klyph3 Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Posts: 59	Great article. Thanks for sharing.

January 16, 2013, 04:07 AM	#6
klyph3 Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Posts: 59	Name one prohibition that worked. Just one.

January 16, 2013, 12:16 PM	#9
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,635	My ancestors made a good bit of lucre back when alcohol was banned. (Shifty Sicilians, oh my...) Seems many of their customers were the wealthy and the politically connected, too. Lessons: 1 - Bans don't work. 2 - Bans are for the little people.

January 16, 2013, 02:56 PM	#11
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 878	That^^^ for sure. +1

January 16, 2013, 03:44 PM	#12
papaul Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2009 Posts: 5	good article, thanks for linking it

January 16, 2013, 03:46 PM	#13
papaul Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2009 Posts: 5	wow, I know I tend to be a lurker, but I thought I had more posts than that!

January 17, 2013, 12:32 AM	#15
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 689	Well, at least in Canada, they got tired enough of wasting money on something that obviously did not work, they actually elected a PM that actively campaigned on removing the long gun registration. Too bad he hasn't mannaged to do the same with handguns.

January 17, 2013, 05:00 PM	#16
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 1,152	Wow, I didn't realize compliance rates were THAT low, across so many places.

January 17, 2013, 05:12 PM	#17
pturner67 Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2006 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 586	I'm not defiant. The current government is. I have the 2nd Amendment on my side. In that, it is very clear what is and is not allowed. "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" Oxford Dictionary's definition of infringe: 1 actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.): 2 act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on The government has no legal right to take away or limit in this case. Therefor, any law created to limit my rights is an unconstitutional law by a defiant government.

January 17, 2013, 05:47 PM	#18
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 878	We can learn much from our neighbors to the north. Raising hell ain't it. I just know we can make it through many more media cycles without loosing our cool. Even 911 slipped the media attention span relatively quickly. Use the courts and money to slow this freight train down, and let the anti's wear themselves to a frazzle. We ought to know about the fleeting focus of the media by now.

January 17, 2013, 06:11 PM	#19
johnwilliamson062 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 6,094	There is a movie where a person rents a gun in Japan for 6 hours or something then returns it after using it to kill someone. I thought that had to be made up, then did some research and found that for a considerable time in post-war Japan there were in fact illegal gun rentals for carrying out crimes. Craziest criminal behavior or economic market I ever heard of, well with the exception of women's hand bags. I have heard that support of a "revolution" in the colonies in the days before "the shot heard 'round the world" hovered around 5%. Once it was apparent armed conflict was coming and there was no avoiding it, that number grew very quickly. Prior to the Civil War it seems there were similar although not as low numbers. We have probably all seen figures for percentage of Muslims that are "radicalized" yet we have two wars and many more theaters of operation(most of which aren't going so well). Before we go in the numbers usually hover around the 15%, then as soon as US troops land they soar. A small minority can force widespread conflict. Anyone need a diplomat? __________________ $0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. Of course, you could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation I was feeling pretty good, then I looked around and realized I am not swimming or on fire.

January 17, 2013, 11:02 PM	#20
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 6,504	If they ever passed a ban, I would sell every single gun I own before the ban went into effect. I would expect a lot of us here to do the same thing. __________________ Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.

January 18, 2013, 12:49 PM	#22
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,635	I agree. Look how the Average American probably views the Branch Davidian or Ruby Ridge incidents. Most probably don't even remember them. Very few would think of them as unjustified violence by federal agents, but they were. In both cases, arresting the primary targets when they were not surrounded by family and friends would have been feasible - in the case of Randy Weaver, he unknowingly had stopped to offer assistance to a couple feds whom he thought had suffered a vehicle breakdown. Bad tactical decisions were made, unnecessary gunfights were initiated, and innocent parties (women and kids) were killed in both incidents. And Joe Blow has no idea...