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Old January 10, 2013, 07:11 PM   #26
Kreyzhorse
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Quote:
It makes it harder to field strip. Thats about it.
+1,000.

The FLGR serves no real purpose other than many expect them to be on tricked out 1911s. My TRP had one, and other than making take down harder, it did nothing to improve the gun. Well, actually, it did cause me to spend some cash replacing it with standard GI rod and plug.
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Old January 10, 2013, 07:25 PM   #27
buckhorn_cortez
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Quote:
+1,000.

The FLGR serves no real purpose other than many expect them to be on tricked out 1911s. My TRP had one, and other than making take down harder, it did nothing to improve the gun. Well, actually, it did cause me to spend some cash replacing it with standard GI rod and plug.
If you had an extremely accurate custom 1911 built with a full length guide rod - would you take it out and replace it? If so, why?
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Old January 10, 2013, 07:33 PM   #28
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The two piece rod requires a wrench, the one piece does not. I use the toe plate of a magazine to depress the end cap on my one piece. You can remove the entire slide assembly without taking anything down by just removing the slide stop but that's about all its good for.
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Old January 11, 2013, 12:12 AM   #29
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Most of mine have standard guide rods. I have a couple with FLGRs. I like standard better but not enough to actually spend a few bucks to buy new ones to replace my FLGRs. Much 'ado about nothing.
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Old January 11, 2013, 12:17 AM   #30
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A full length guide rod on a 1911 is like a sister-in-law with a great rack. Your buddies might think its cool, but it really isn't doing you any good
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Old January 11, 2013, 01:36 AM   #31
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^^^ Brilliant! Best analogy I've seen in a while.
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Old January 11, 2013, 07:48 AM   #32
polyphemus
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"What difference does the full length rod provide verses the configuration in the basic 1911 with the shorter rod?"
Objectively,none.There seems to be no mechanical or performance reasons
to justify the addition of more moving parts and extra steps for stripping and
reassembly.
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:07 PM   #33
polyphemus
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post#18

"Here, the end of the plug and guide rod can be seen, along with the unsupported spring coils. There just ain't a lotta room for the spring to bend".
Agreed,the recoil spring does not"kink" during operation.
It is the xray graphic that I'm wondering about,it actually shows a bullet exiting
the barrel,what type device was used to produce that image?just curious
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Old January 11, 2013, 06:20 PM   #34
1911Tuner
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Photo

Quote:
It is the xray graphic that I'm wondering about,it actually shows a bullet exiting
the barrel,what type device was used to produce that image?just curious
That's a very old photograph...likely a fluroscope...showing that the slide does indeed move before the bullet exits.

Here, the base of the bullet is about an inch from the muzzle, and...judging by the position of the link and the slide/frame alighment at the rear...the slide has moved about .070-.075 inch, which is just about right.

Note also the horizontal engagement of the upper lugs.

If you look close, you can see the bones in the shooter's hand...and take note that the gun hasn't moved very much. Most of what we perceive as recoil is muzzle flip, and 90% of that comes from the slide impacting the frame...and recoil from the internal ballistic event is long since over. By the time the slide hits the frame, the bullet is about 20 yards downrange...assuming 230@830 fps
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Old January 11, 2013, 06:43 PM   #35
BigJimP
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All of my 1911's from Wilson Combat ( all 5" guns / a pair of Protector models and a CQB model ) ...all full size 5" guns...were shipped new to me, with FLGR's.... All 3 guns have the 1" guarantee at 25 yds ( not that I can shoot that well off hand) but they are very accurate ...well made guns.

No, I will not change the FLGR's in any of them Buckhorn, to answer your question in the response above ....
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Old January 11, 2013, 08:59 PM   #36
polyphemus
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Re:photo

A fluoroscope of a 1911 firing the first round,wonders never cease.
This is a very absorbing and instructive picture,the slide appears not to have
started to retract even though the bullet is almost out of the barrel and also
of interest is how the rounds are stacked,there is a noticeable larger gap between 6th and 5th than the others.They are a pleasure to shoot but to me
more of a pleasure to study.Thank you.
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Old January 13, 2013, 12:08 PM   #37
Walt Sherrill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckhorn cortez
On the flip side - the second most accurate pistol I own does not have a full length guide rod. However, when compared in a Ransom Rest, the FLGR pistol beats the other pistol by about 0.1-inch in accuracy at 50 yards. Either gun being way more accurate than I can shoot.
Comparing two different guns isn't really useful. In case cited above, we don't know that the accuracy difference between the two guns is due to the guide rod.

But, if you'd do the same Ransom Rest tests using both a standard guide rod and FLGR in the same gun, we might learn something meaningful about the value of a FLGR in the real world.
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Old January 13, 2013, 01:46 PM   #38
Mike38
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Advantages of a full length guide rod.

The pistol runs smoother and the slide to frame fit stays snug longer because the slide is guided straighter back and forward on the guide rod, rather than depending so much on the frame rails for guidance.

Adds a touch of muzzle weight. Which helps dampen the natural ‘wobble zone’.

Pistol is actually easier to field strip if it has a tight bushing to slide fit. Stripping is done similar to the Beretta 92FS as well as others like it. The spring stays captured in the upper assembly when removed.

Bottom line, it’s six of one, half dozen of the other. Which ever you prefer, do it.
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Old January 13, 2013, 02:31 PM   #39
Willie Sutton
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"The pistol runs smoother and the slide to frame fit stays snug longer because the slide is guided straighter back and forward on the guide rod, rather than depending so much on the frame rails for guidance"



<insert "this is to be taken with a sense of humor" here>

Bull****


Thousands of 1911's have run millions of rounds of .45 without issues of "smoothness" or anything else using the basic as-built components.

In fact... probably the most reliable duty 1911's built have the following features:


SOLID bushings (no fingers to break)

Standard guide rods

Long triggers with the over-travel screw removed and thrown away.

And leave the rest alone.

(except for us unsafe old guys who black-tape down the grip safety before installing our grips. beavertail safety? Who needs a beavertail safety if you have black tape? )


"You can remove the entire slide assembly without taking anything down by just removing the slide stop but that's about all its good for."


I do that all the time with my EDC 1911A1, with standard length guide rod. Push finger against slide stop end, cycle slide, and remove slide stop. Wrap fingers around slide as you remove it to capture the spring. Assemble the old fashioned way (swing bushing aside, assemble without spring tension, compress spring, and rotate bushing to lock. No tools, instant, and can be done behind your back in the dark.


Willie


.
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Old January 13, 2013, 02:34 PM   #40
Walt Sherrill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike38
The pistol runs smoother and the slide to frame fit stays snug longer because the slide is guided straighter back and forward on the guide rod, rather than depending so much on the frame rails for guidance.
As as I understand it, the fired bullet leaves the barrel when the slide has moved a mere fraction of an inch (1/10th of an inch or so). If so, the roll a FLGR plays must have to do with consistency of lockup when the slide is returned to battery.

That said, I'm less sure than you that the guide rod plays much of a roll in guiding slide movement, because unless the guide rod itself is fitted with a bushing (like the barrel), there's generally good bit of "slop" between the slide, the recoil spring, and the guide rod. If the "guide" itself is sloppy, how can it make the slide less so?

I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn about 1911s, so I'm willing to be instructed -- but the information cited above just isn't all that clear to me.


.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; January 13, 2013 at 08:44 PM.
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Old January 13, 2013, 02:43 PM   #41
Skadoosh
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"A full length guide rod adds weight to the front end of the gun, thus reducing muzzle flip!..."

I actually saw that advertised somewhere...

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Old January 13, 2013, 02:52 PM   #42
Willie Sutton
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Full length guide rods were obviously designed by the grandson of this famous man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Parker


Willie


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Old January 13, 2013, 04:43 PM   #43
polyphemus
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^^^^
They can't proscribe catapultae,that's what the Navy uses to launch
aircraft from the carriers.
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Old January 13, 2013, 08:40 PM   #44
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^^^

Bravo Zulu


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Old January 13, 2013, 10:07 PM   #45
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I have 6 1911 variants, all have flgr, not sure when the tide changed but 15yrs or so ago, just about all non gi versions came w flgr. Mine are all 100% reliable. Is it because of he flgr? Probably not, but it sure isn't hurting anything and it seems logical to me to collapse the spring in a controlled maner. It's cheap, it's not difficult to break down and it doesn't hurt reliability. Do you need it? Obviously not.
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Old January 13, 2013, 10:45 PM   #46
KyJim
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Not sure if it means much, but I understand that for many years Ed Brown pistols all used a standard guide rod. He started using a FLGR in his top of the line Custom Classic. When asked why, he reportedly said that some customers thought the highest end 1911s came with FLGRs and asked for them. This led him to offer it on his top end pistol as a standard item. I imagine a lot of 1911s out there come with a FLGR for the same reason -- a fair chunk of the shooting public simply thinks a good 1911 should come with one and manufacturers are willing to oblige.
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Old January 14, 2013, 11:28 AM   #47
Walt Sherrill
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Quote:
it seems logical to me to collapse the spring in a controlled maner...
While it is clearly an intellectually pleasing concept, what do you see as the performance advantages of the recoil spring being collapsed in a controlled manner?

I only have one CZ at the moment, but I've have owned multiple CZs at the same time at different times, over a period of years. I have never noticed differences in performance between those with full-length guide rods or standard guide rods that can't be attributed to other factors.
The Wolff recoil springs offered for CZs are really springs for the similar Witness, but are much larger in diameter (to fit on the larger-diameter Witness guide rods). A result, the Wolff springs, installed in a CZ, do not fit snugly on either the full-length or standard guide rods and clearly allow more SLOP in the springs when used. (You can see it in wear marks on the barrel and frame, as the spring rubs there during recoil.)
Regardless of the spring diameter or type of guide rod used, if the new spring has the proper compression weight the results (on target) always seem the same.

(I don't have access to a Ransom Rest or the proper inserts for my guns, but that would allow a more-meaningful comparison.)

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; January 14, 2013 at 11:47 AM.
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Old January 14, 2013, 11:57 AM   #48
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LOL, I get a kick about the myths of FLGRs and JMB. That JMB's design can't be improved is one of the funniest, however. ery early on it was noted that numerous changes needed to be made. Besides, much of the 1911 wasn't JMB's idea, but the military's.

I have them in some of my 1911s and I like how they affect perceived recoil. I can still break down my guns with my eyes closed/in the dark, as if that matters or is a need, LOL, and with no special tools.

I have tried that behind the back business, but can't say there is any need for that either and when you drop a part, it is harder to find.

There are some strange standards by which we guage whether something is appropriate.
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Old January 14, 2013, 12:16 PM   #49
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I'm one of those who remove the FLGR. It's a pita and accomplishes nothing but making it a pita.
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Old January 14, 2013, 12:23 PM   #50
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"Besides, much of the 1911 wasn't JMB's idea, but the military's."
The name for this is revisionism.
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