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Old January 10, 2013, 12:17 PM   #26
Magnum Wheel Man
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thing is, no one actually wants to get shot...

however, seems like more & more druggies on things like "bath salts" or Meth, or ???

also got to take into account the waccos, that expect to end up dead, after they do what ever...

that said, I don't have a problem with the smaller bores, I regularly carry old 32 S&W, 38 S&W, the 22 mag wouldn't be an issue for me, but my "regular gun" is a 45 Colt
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:27 PM   #27
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If you knew a 100% that you were going to get in a gun fight but could only bring a hand gun that could be concealed and something you could lug around all day what would it be? That's what you should carry.
I see your point.

The problem is that reality is just about the total reverse. Based on historical evidence plus my personal knowledge about where and when I go places... I could just about be 100% sure I won't ever get in a gun fight. Or ever have to draw my gun at all.

I suppose I could use that knowledge to stop carrying a gun entirely but I've actually always enjoyed having one around. For the general peace of mind. For the feeling that I have some control over my destiny, no matter how unlikely to need it. I carry a spare tire and jack in my car and I haven't had a flat in at least 20 years.

But back to the OP, I'll make two comments. One positive and one negative.

Let's make the negative one first. And probably the number one reason I've never carried a rimfire as my primary. (Although I have carried a NAA Mini Master in .22 WMRF as a BUG.) The biggest problem is reliability over time. Anybody who has fired mega-thousands of rounds of .22 LR knows this is true. Every now and then... one of them just doesn't go off. Sometimes you can pull it out of the chamber, rotate it, then try again and it does. Sometimes they just won't go off and you toss them. I _have_ had centerfire "duds" but I bet we are talking about a 100-1 ratio with the rimfire as the 100.

The positive one is about .22 WMRF. I'm not a huge fan of the super short (less than 2") barrels on some of the NAA guns. But if you give the cartridge just a little more barrel, it can surprise you. Jeff got over 1000 fps with all the 40 and 45 grain bullets out of the LCR. And it only has a 1.9" barrel. I really think it would be better with a 3" barrel but that's not bad. Here's the best part compared to .22 LR. The bullet construction of .22 WMRF is far superior to the simple lead bullets of .22 LR. And that leads to very deep penetration. Jeff and that LCR again... he got between 13 and 15 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. So you don't hit the bad guy with a lot of foot pounds but the bullet will get to the vitals. And the very minimal recoil means you should be able to do it several times.

It's a nice gun. And he had no extraction problems. So Ruger is doing something right. I could see giving one to my wife since she almost never goes shooting. But I would check it often to make sure no oil was getting on the cartridges. And I would swap them out for fresh ones on a regular basis.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCR22Mag.htm

I will say again... it would be even better with a 3" barrel! Really no harder to conceal.

Gregg
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Old January 10, 2013, 01:59 PM   #28
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Not that ammunition capacity is ever a substitute for placement, but the Kel-Tec Model PMR-30, a semi-auto pistol weighing 15.2 ounces and having a magazine capacity of thirty rounds of .22 Magnum rounds, is an interesting concept for a self-defense pistol-especially @ the price of $145.00 (at least, that's the price quoted by Guns magazine as a part of their recent review of this interesting firearm).
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:00 PM   #29
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If you believe like I do that all defensive handgun cartridges are under-powered; to choose a .22 magnum rimfire as the tool with which you are going to bet your life seems to increase the risk of failure to stop a threat as quickly as a more powerful/less under-powered cartridge choice.

In a defensive shooting situation time is something you have to consider precious.
You are reacting to a threat.
You are out of time.
You have to defend yourself right now.
The threat is right there.

Even if you deliver two bullets to center of mass, the threat might still continue shooting at you for many seconds more.
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:02 PM   #30
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22 Magnum... IMHO a very poor choice for a CCW gun... very poor... Sure its got penetration, but it has nothing else that you want? Think is going to penetrate heavy bone? What are the odds of a CNS hit with something so small?

Sorry, Its just not a good choice..
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:07 PM   #31
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People have been killed by single punches. You don't need guns, just fists.
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:17 PM   #32
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Although certainly possible to terminate someone with a single punch, how does that work out for the 135 lb woman being assaulted by the 230 lb man? Just not realistic for a majority of the population... In WWII the Japanese Army desperately low on supplies fought with swords and knives in places... It didn't work out very well for them, fist would be much less so...

Not to say some people don't have the talent, skills or luck to win the fight but your average person just isn't going to do it..
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:24 PM   #33
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no offense to the original poster of this quote, but words like this...

Quote:
the threat might still continue shooting at you for many seconds more.
really irritate me... this is um... never going to happen to me... never...

I can positively say, that I'll never be cornered with someone shooting at me, where my only recoarse is to shoot back... I'm just totally not of that sloppy of a mindset... I am the guy that sits with his back to the wall, facing the door, & with exits thought out, everwhere I go... if shots are fired, I'm 1st taking cover / trying to get away, 2nd calling 911 on the phone, 3rd going for my gun ( that may happen so quick, that it looks like one motion )... not trying to brag, like I'm some kind of trained commando, just if shots have been fired at me, then honestly, I've already blown it... aside from the internet commandos, & professionally trained military guys, we as CCW people have already lost the battle... 100% of my mindset is not to end up in a fast draw contest to the death, or end up in a hollywood style shootout...

in fact, if an armed gun man some how were to get the jump on me, & want my wallet, the wifes ring, etc... those go 1st, long before the gun comes out, not only am I unwilling to risk myself getting shot over something stupid, I'm also unwilling to let those around me take a bullet because of my stupidity...

if things escalate beyond simple robbery, I hope I can put a car, or building, or space between my group & the bad guy... I'm sure facts show, the victim pulling a gun ends the confrontation nearly all the time, I regularly carry 6 45 Colt rounds, but don't feel at all under gunned, with less cartridges, or smaller size bullets
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:27 PM   #34
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Two comments .... first, to the gentleman who quoted a price of $145 for the PMR-30, I'll take all you can get at that price ... List is three or four times that ... and to the gentleman who worried about rimfires going bang; I agree that .22LR suffers from more than its share of duds. I've experienced FTF many times with a variety of .22LR handguns ... however .... I have NEVER had a .22mag fail and I've shot a lot of them. Not sure why that is, but it's my experience and I'll bet many TFL members will say the same ...

By the by, visited a big gun store in Austin to order a Springer XDm today and asked about the Ruger LCR 22.mag ... none of the distributors they deal with had any available ... they suggested placing an order, but I passed ... I'll try again in a month or two ...
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Old January 10, 2013, 02:34 PM   #35
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Quote:
to the gentleman who quoted a price of $145 for the PMR-30
in fact I had been wanting one, but I have a thread here, showing some selling for $1,600.00 a far cry from the typo of $145.00
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Old January 10, 2013, 03:44 PM   #36
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-especially @ the price of $145.00 (at least, that's the price quoted by Guns magazine
I'm the poster who quoted this price but, as noted, it's the price as stated by Guns magazine. I was dubious of this price which is why I used the caveat "at least" but I really had no idea what they actually were selling for. Though it's not my "typo", I guess I'm guilty of quoting someone else's typo.
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Old January 10, 2013, 03:46 PM   #37
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by the way you worded it, I assumed it was not your typo...

BTW... since they went way out of my price range, I just wanted to clairify that you can't buy one for $150.00
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Old January 10, 2013, 03:51 PM   #38
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The evidence that the .22 Magnum is more effective than the .38 Special 158 grain RN are tests conducted with ballistic gelatin by IIRC the Secret Service in the early 70's plus my observations in tissue destruction in turkeys, various varmints, and deer over a 40 year+ period of using the .22 Magnum

In ballistic gellatin, the .38 Special 158 grain round nose produces limited cavitation, While the .22 Magnum with a strong jacketed soft point produces cavitation that exceeds the .38 Special 158 grain Round Nose considerably.

Regretably, the data I had on these tests, as well as most of my firearms and ammunition library, was destroyed by Hurricane Hugo fn 1989.

Winchester and CCI have recently developed .22 Magnum loadings for optimum performance in short barrels that, based on the information I have read, will prove to be more effective than the .38 Special loading that for years was the standard police cartridge in most metropolitan areas.

The .38 Special 158 grain Round Nose produces 200 to 225 foot pounds of muzzle energy while several loadings of the .22 Magnum with bullet weights ranging from 34 to 50 grains produce muzzle energies ranging form 240 to 338 foot pounds (Ammo Encyclopedia by Michael Bussard).
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Old January 10, 2013, 03:51 PM   #39
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Its a great choice if size of gun is concerned. Nothing is close to this small that packs as much fire power.

This is my NAA Pug 22mag 5 shot revolver with my Strider SnG CC. I like the PDX1 22mag ammo.


PDX1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alos8NMWZug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75b054WcN4
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Old January 10, 2013, 05:28 PM   #40
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There have some good examples of times when a .22m may be the only choice. Mouse gun and physical disability being the 2 big ones. I'm also not a believer in that it's takes a canon to defends one self well. Heck, I've carried a .22lr when it's been my best choice (gun size considerations). But aside from disability I can't see any reason to intentionally go out and buy a CC handgun in .22m when a twin is also available in any of the centerfires. None, nada, no way.
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Old January 10, 2013, 07:19 PM   #41
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I'm in favor of the "buy and carry what you want/are comfortable with" side of things.....you know that old thing about a 22 that's with you or a .45 left in the safe at home.

If the person in question is highly recoil sensitive or something and simply will not carry a handgun in a larger caliber, then a 22Mag doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me. I know a little 85 year old great grandma who can't handle a .380 or 9mm but can very comfortably carry and shoot her .25acp Beretta.

I don't know anyone that's been shot by a 22Mag, but a few people I know who've been shot by .22lr definitely won't be telling you about the lack of stopping power.
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Old January 10, 2013, 07:35 PM   #42
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the last year has seen several new SPECIAL loads released for 22 rimfires that are designed to actually expand in the small barrels. however the issue is

these loads are not easy to find at this time. these loads are not cheap to find either.

as a result the person who spends 450.00 on a 22 lr or 22 mag revolver is going to use what ever they can find at the gunstore that costs less then what it would take to get the fancy new loads online. (standard shipping handling, sales tax, hazmat fees, etc) and simply use the WRONG ammunition.

yeah, bullet selection isnt going to be good when all you can get locally is varmint ammo designed for a 20 inch barrel, or target fmj.
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:27 PM   #43
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No matter what kind of hope and prayer 22 ammunition, coming out of a pistol it just isn't a heavy bone penetrator nor is it a great round for SD... Better than nothing, sure and certainly it your disabled and it works for your condition Id go for it.... But short of a medical or physical reason to carry it, its a "no go" in my book of CCW.... Your mileage may vary
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Old January 11, 2013, 04:30 AM   #44
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bikerbill I have never had a misfire 22m in my life until a few months ago. I bought a box of winchester super X "Carton No. RCWM42A E119316 K5334 from sportsmans warehouse and 9 out of 10 misfire. I thought it was the gun but I bought another box different lot No. and they work just fine. As soon as they get more in stock I plan on asking them to replace this box.
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:09 PM   #45
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Looking at the numbers, the .22WMR is ballistically similar to the .32ACP when both are fired in short-barreled guns....

.....whether that is enough for you is up to you.....
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Old January 12, 2013, 01:42 PM   #46
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Quote:
Magnum Wheel Man

no offense to the original poster of this quote, but words like this...

Quote:
Mello2u
the threat might still continue shooting at you for many seconds more.
really irritate me... this is um... never going to happen to me... never.. .
I'm not offended, just sharing what several authoritative sources have said has happened.
Facts may irritate you, but you have no control over whether some bad guy continues to fight after you have placed two .45" bullets through his/her heart.

Your tactical response of moving and finding cover is a reasonable plan to cope with such a threat. By your response you actually admit acceptance that it could happen to you and have a plan.
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Old January 12, 2013, 11:33 PM   #47
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I always have a NAA .22mag in a pocket holster as a BUG. I have two of them and can think of no reason not to. Worst case scenario, I can pass it to my wife or a friend if needed. There are times, though rare they are, that I don't have another CCW in at least 9mm or larger caliber.
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Old January 13, 2013, 12:27 AM   #48
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i carry a taurus snubbie in .22 magnum. its a mean little gun...
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Old January 17, 2013, 03:03 PM   #49
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i have the lcr 22lr and love shooting it. its super accurate up close and at 70+ yards. and from this video it looks like the lcr 22 mag has about the same recoil and accuracy as the 22lr version, the lcr 38 on the other hand has way more recoil and seems like it would be difficult to hit someone while you are under fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Lkt..._sNmQ&index=20

just look at him shooting all 3. the lcr 38spl does not make sense in a little gun imo. still not 100% sure which one i'll get though.

does anyone really think if you don't stop someone's attack with a chest shot from a .22 mag that a .38spl+p will? but i do believe i have a better chance to make a head shot with the lcr 22 mag than the lcr 38spl.

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Old January 17, 2013, 07:30 PM   #50
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STOPPING POWER = penetration and expansion adequate to shred vital organs and cause cessation of assault.

KILLING POWER = bullet wound that causes someone to bleed to death but does not prevent them from advancing.


(My own words on those definitions)
The FBI has done this and for the most part people accept the fact that modern ammunition that does not get you 12" minimum penetration, is designed to transfer all the bullet's energy into the target without leaving it, and is going to leave a good permanent wound cavity, and hopefully cause hydrostatic shock...will stop someone.

Can a 22WMR penetrate 12 inches, maybe, maybe not. Is it's mass and velocity enough to do the damage needed to stop somenone, probably not with any reliability.

If you want to shoot and kill someone or expect someone to fall down when you're shot like they do on TV, then sure, go with the 22wmr or 22lr or 32acp, or 380. Not saying those guns can't luck out and actually stop someone because you lucked out and got that perfect CNS shot...but how are your odds vs. using an appropriate caliber (9mm and up)?

That should be someone's choice to make when they decide to pack a 22. My mother carries a little Smith 22WMR revolver in her purse and I've given her that disclaimer and she knows it's "better than nothing" and not likely to have stopping power. It upsets me, but that's her choice.
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