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Old December 10, 2012, 03:05 AM   #26
Pond, James Pond
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If they stuck out so far they were scraping the frame, they weren't even close to being seated deep enough.
This was my point. Those 3 were not seated properly like the others and so were rubbing on the frame as the cylinder rotated. All the others were flush under fingertip.
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Old December 10, 2012, 03:54 AM   #27
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Not knowing what brands are locally available to you, IF you can get your hands on a supply of the Winchester LP primers, you should be set. They are a bit hotter than other brands of LP primers and are listed on the boxes as for Standard or Magnum Loads. If your looking to economize and only have one primer for multiple loads that would be the one I would use. Then once you work up your done. The Winchesters will light off the slowest of any powder, compressed or not, that you will be using with little effort.

I use them almost exclusively for all of my revolver loads. There are only a couple of special ones I might use a Fed. or CCI, but they are the minority. I have had no issues with loads of slow powders using the Win primers. The one thing I have found is that with light loads of faster powders for medium or plinking loads they will give a wide spread of velocities. For those type loads however you usually don't need that much to light off the faster powders being used. That is where the other brands of standard primers really shine.

Just my experiences with loading for revolvers over the years.
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Old December 10, 2012, 08:49 PM   #28
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If the VV 110 is anything like H-110, Mag primers are a necessity for max velocity and uniform pressure.
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Old December 11, 2012, 10:47 PM   #29
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VV N_110

My Lee Modern Reloading manual list several bullet weights for the 44 mag with compressed loads.I don't think you are in danger by a compressed load as long as you keep progressing in small increments as you said you were doing.Maybe cut back to .2 or .3 increases instead of .5 and continue to watch for pressure signs.
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Old December 12, 2012, 03:15 AM   #30
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Thanks for the summary of compressed loads. Good to know.

Also a valid point on the incremental increases. I really need to get back to the bench and load some more, but I must say that sitting in the garage, reloading in -7 celsius does not entice me much....

Getting too accustomed to creature comforts!!
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Old December 12, 2012, 10:49 AM   #31
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"If the VV 110 is anything like H-110, Mag primers are a necessity for max velocity and uniform pressure."

Aside from the same applications N110 is nothing like H110. H110 is a double base fine ball powder that cannot be downloaded or compressed and requires magnum priming for proper ignition. N110 is a single base fairly fine extruded powder, a little coarser than H322 but finer than Varget. It can be downloaded, I've seen published data in 38 Special with N110, and it can be compressed. Recommended priming with N110 in published data is all over the map. In my experience and from what I can tell from published data N110 does not require magnum priming but it doesn't hurt it either.
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Old December 12, 2012, 08:03 PM   #32
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Compression loads tread very very lightly that's just my opinion
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Old December 21, 2012, 12:26 PM   #33
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More data.

Today I fired 36 .44 mag rounds. Outdoors, -10 Celsius.

3 cylinders of 200gr bullets over N110 trial charges and 3 clylinders of 240gr bullets over N110 trial charges. As usual, they all started their journey in my 4.2" Redhawk

They all went through the chrono (well, over, not through, but YKWIM).

Here is the data below. The 240gr bullets I think were fairly clear in their results, but please chime in if I am not interpreting correctly. The 3 sets of
200gr bullets also had interesting results.

200gr plated:
I shot 6 x 19gr , 6 x 19.5gr & 6 x 20gr of N110.
First string in fps (19gr): 709, 628, 989, 651, 688, 1088. Av:792. All very slow for a .44, I think... Quite a bit of unburnt powder, too.

Second string (19.5gr): 792. 767, 805, 826, 896, 784, 752. Av:805. Also slow, but with shots 2 and 3 similar to what I get from 13.6gr of N350 under the same bullet. Some unburnt powder for some shots.

Third string (20gr): 1025, 1106, 1106, 841, 813, 1001. Av:982. No unburnt powder

All in all, I think the charges here were borderingon light, which is unexpected as they were well into the powder range for that bullet weight... Now it was cold, so perhaps the chrono was suffering, but they all felt like .44 specials, rather thanmag, and retrospectively, I am pleased that I did not have another squib.

I did see sand on each shot, and each time there was a reading on the chrono even if it read "dupl" or "Err". All shots were felt in the palm. Bit paranoid about squibs!!
I even checked the barrel at home to put my mind at rest!!

Anyway, I think that perhaps I need to go up quite a bit: 21-21.5gr, perhaps, because it seems that the pressure was way low on those lighter bullets.


With the 240gr bullets I was trying to push the max limit a bit, bto get the most velocity because if my plans for the 265gr Marlin .430 FNFMJs don't work out, this will be my woods load.

240gr FNFMJs: I shot 6 x 21gr , 6 x 21.2gr & 6 x 21.5gr of N110.
First string in fps (21gr): 1278, 1336, 1299, 1299, 1344, One shot not registered. Av:1311. No squashed primers. Smooth extraction.

Second string (21.2gr): 1329. 1314, 1353, 1352, 1336, One shot not registered. Av:1336. No squashed primers. Smooth-ish extraction.

Third string (21.5gr): 1359, 1356, 1309, 1366, 1344, One shot not registered. Av:1346. No squashed primers. Smooth-ish extraction. One split cases from neck to about half way down

I think the 21.5gr were lightly compressed by this stage, but can't be sure. Sure enough for me not to try for anywhere near 22grs!!

Either way, I think I can ditch the 21.5gr charge and for an extra 25fps I'm not sure if I should keep the 21.2gr or just settle on 21gr.
Thoughts on which to keep?
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Old December 23, 2012, 05:53 PM   #34
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I've thought about it.

I'm sticking to 21gr for the 240gr, and I'll work up to 21gr for the 200gr. For the latter I hope that will address the pressure issues, for the former it gives me a healthy 0.5gr of margin between what I load and what was excessive...
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Old December 23, 2012, 06:42 PM   #35
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Did you shoot any rounds for accuracy too, or just for velocity? My first concern when reloading is always accuracy. Velocity is nice to know and when loading at the top of the ladder it helps to see when increases in powder charges do not increase velocity, but......while .2 grains for an extra 25fps might not be a reason to stick with a load, a much tighter pattern would be.
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Old December 23, 2012, 06:55 PM   #36
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Good point.

I may load another lot of each to try for accuracy too. I hope the 21gr meets that need as I'd feel more comfortable with that 0.5gr margin.
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Old December 23, 2012, 07:00 PM   #37
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either increase crimp for a more complete burn or what I would do is not worry about it and shoot
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Old January 12, 2013, 04:33 AM   #38
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Yesterday I shot of a small sample of 21gr loads, under both 240gr FNFMJ, and 200gr plated TC.

As I am not overly accurate with this heavy revolver, I opted for resting on a bench surface to get a better aim. At 30-40ft, they were pretty close to the mark.
The 200gr were tighter, but I think that was me, more than the gun as the 240grs really do have a kick and resting on a bench seems to make that worse. I don't know what those 265gr Hornady's I have ordered are going to feel like, sat over a hot load!!

Anyway, I feel as though these loads are almost accurate as any I've had in the past. I do remember getting the holes from my factory S&B loads to touch, but there I was at 20ft, probably less.

I have noticed that all my shots are left of where I was aiming. So it could be the rearsight needs adjusting, or I've a technique issue to address. (Most likely the letter...)

Being right handed that little flinch pie-chart says it might be anticipating recoil (with hot .44 loads?! Surely not!!), tightening grip, or incorrect finger position.
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Old January 12, 2013, 06:55 AM   #39
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I am going to make a wild guess here that you are shooting in the cold with gloves on as well. This will change the way the trigger pull feels. If you were shooting double action I would say hard pulling the trigger. If single action then most common thing is pulling harder to try and compensate for heavy recoil.

A firm grip is needed. Though trying to muscle over recoil is not going to happen. Relax just a tad bit. Use the bench to rest your arms on, and lean into the shots. It helps a whole lot.
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Old January 12, 2013, 10:29 AM   #40
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I have to say I don't plan on shooting lots of those 240gr'ers at a time, they are noticeably stouter than the 200gr'ers.

Yes it was cold, but no gloves and all double action.

I think it is over-compensation for recoil as I played a trick on myself. I put two empty cases in the cylinder at 12 o'clock and 4 o'clock. I span the cylinder and closed it without looking at the gun. Then is hot and yes, on the ones without a charge, I did seem to flinch a bit, so that is something I will need to work on...

With the bench shooting, I will just have to practice: 90% of my shots are standing, double handed. The rest strong or weak side. I've shot 2 dozen from a bench. No more.
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Old March 15, 2013, 12:38 PM   #41
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VVN110

This is the VVN110 reply on their powder with primers. I would like more information on compressed loads


MESSAGE:
I recently purchased a Desert eagle 44 Mag. I have read many of the forums studying and discussing gas ports on the DE 44 Mag. This led me to your powder N110 due to its notoriety on the forums for a very clean burn. I have looked through your load data but cannot find information for the 44 Mag Hornady XTP 240 grain. I would like the recommended load for the 44DE and starting and max loads. Are these loads meant to use large pistol or large magnum pistol primers?

I saw the load data for the 240 JTC-SIL Hornady using the N110 Start Load 20.4 Gr. Velocity 1427, Max load 22.1 Gr. Velocity1541. Can I use this for the 240-grain Hornady XTP hollow point?

I have found a local distributor that carries your powder. I have previously used Winchester 296 and accurate#9. I would prefer to use your product for its clean burn in my DE. This information will help me in loading My DE44 and Ruger Red Hawk for Target and hunting.

Thank You for Your Support





Hi Mike,



Yes, the 240 JTC data should be an excellent starting point for the 240 XTP you’re wanting to use. It is, of course a different bullet, and will need to be worked back up to max, but the starting loads should be a good place to begin. Given the differences in the bullets themselves, I would expect to see some difference in the max loads, but that’s precisely why we start low and work up. Just keep an eye on the usual pressure signs, and don’t press too hard. Remember, at the pressures the 44 Mag operates within, you’re at the lower edge of the range at which you can see notable pressure signs. Just take it slowly, and consider it a stopping point just as soon as any such signs appear.



I would normally go directly to a Large Pistol Magnum primer for this application, unless I was using a faster powder for very light to midrange practice loads (which probably isn’t feasible for the DE anyway). Then, I would consider substituting the standard Large Pistol primer. I hope this answers your question, but if there’s anything more we can do to be of assistance, please don’t hesitate to let us know. As always, we’ll be glad to help.



Sincerely,



Kevin Thomas



Sales & Marketing Manager

Nammo, Inc.

123 Winchester Drive

Sedalia, MO 65301
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Old March 16, 2013, 11:36 AM   #42
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getting a 240 grainer going 1300 fps from 4 1/2 incher may mean you are already operating at upper pressure level. Usually the velocitys used by companys are from longer barrels, and a couple inches in 44 mag can make a significant difference.

Difficult extraction as u increase your your load levels can indicate a higher pressure over your previous load. It is not a reliable indication of max pressure in revolvers, and should not be relied on to indicate a pressure level to be reached.

The velocitys listed for the 200 grain plated bullets and 19-20 grains N-110 look unusually low. From a 4 inch S7W mt gun using 21.0 N110, Rem 210 sjhp and Fed 150 primers am consistently getting about 1350 fps. Very accurate load.

The loads listed for the years using N110 in 357 mag have been all over the map, as are the primers used. The first loads listed by Vihatori (spelling) were using small rifle primers and the pressures were measured differently. Speer has specifically gone to regular small pistol primers, and increased the charges over most other manuals.
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:01 PM   #43
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Difficult extraction as u increase your your load levels can indicate a higher pressure over your previous load. It is not a reliable indication of max pressure in revolvers, and should not be relied on to indicate a pressure level to be reached.
I'm not so experienced, but I can say that extraction is smooth and unremarkable: no different to factory loads or my lighter 200gr N350 loads that I'd loaded before buying the N110.

There are no primers pushing back out of the pocket, and no splits in the cases.

If there are other pressure signs I should look for, I'd be very interested to learn about them: my repertoire is not great!
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:05 PM   #44
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I say check your crimp. When using the slower powders hard crimping is needed for good start pressures that as close to the same with each other as can be had. Your crimps should be at the point of not quite buckling the case, just almost. That will also help with a lot of the unburned powder. If there is just a tad bit of powder, and everything else is working shoot them.

Though I am going to say try crimping a tad bit more. You may have to sacrifice a case, and bullet or two to get it right. Oh and make sure your brass is trimmed to the same length to get a crimp in the same spot with each one.
That is bad advice and you putting it to the point of crumpling the case is very problematical.

You should only crimp enough to achieve the mission and in some cases, that means none at all.

That has been tested and the crimp has no affect on the combustion process, situation or velocity. Red this.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar184.htm

If you read the reload manuals, Sierra tells you to use a firm taper crimp a 9mm , Hornady says mild or none. Crimping a 9mm too much can lead to issue with head space as it head spaces on the mouth. All you want is for the bullet not to move when its cycled and a very mild does that just fine.

I do have a Speer JSWCHP that does require a crimp due to the bullet design (no longer made but I have lots). I do crimp but also have shot it sans crimp and not an issue (the crimp may keep it safely away from occasionally separating and I accept that).

Raunching on your cases to the edge of failure for no good reason is very very very bad practice as you can push it into other failure modes as well as hard on the brass.
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Old March 16, 2013, 04:32 PM   #45
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Pond-outside of sending your loads to be pressure tested, you appear to be indicating actually recording velocitys. Firing a factory round of similiar bullet and intent (full power, target, whatever) gives you an approximation of the velocitys you see from your individual pistol/rifle. This helps account for differences in the individual firearm are affecting velocity/pressure. Becoming familiar with how different the velocitys are from your individual firearm as compared to what is in the reloading manual helps. If operating in the higher pressure regions, paying attention to brass and primer type can help.

If you see some significant/huge increase in velocity, in a cartridge not known for being deliberatly loaded to lower pressures, real good chance you are operating above recommended pressures.

Pressure signs in higher pressure rifle loads are better indicators than pistol/revolvers, but may still only show AFTER you are exceeding safe pressures.

Certainly there are going to be exceptions, and different powders,primers,cartridges/firearms/load levels can/do/will behave differently.

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Old March 16, 2013, 05:45 PM   #46
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If you see some significant/huge increase in velocity, in a cartridge not known for being deliberatly loaded to lower pressures, real good chance you are operating above recommended pressures.
Starting to feel paranoid now!!

I've lloked back over the velocities I've posted in this thread and I don't see anything that looks like a significant velocity increase...

In fact, as I've worked up in 0.5 gr increments from 19gr up to 21gr the velocities shown on the chrono have also been incremental. Even the borderline compressed charge of 21.5gr, which gave me a split case, was not a big leap ahead from my existing choice of 21gr.

I don't see anything alarming, but then I don't know what a significant increase in velocity should look like!!

Are the velocity figures I've quoted in my posts on this thread a reason for concern?
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Old March 16, 2013, 06:15 PM   #47
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Pond,I understand your comment on unburned powder jamming between the crane and frame.
I learned about this with a Model 10 S+W 30 some years ago.When you push the ejector rod,develop the habit to have the muzzle pointed straight up at the sky.Then any unburned powder will will not fall where it will cause trouble.It is also a problem if it gets between the star shaped ejector plate and the cylinder.

The advice to up the powder charge for cleaner burning seems to have worked for you.

That 25.2 load seemed most consisant for velocity,though data is limited.

You are using jacketed bullets.Hopefully,they have a cannelure to crimp into.Observe how much crimp the cannelure is happy with.Trust your eyes.If you have no cannelure,your crimping will be limited.

Crimping serves two purposes in a revolver.It does aid in good ignition before the cyl gap bleeds off pressure,and it also helps retain the bullets in the case under recoil.With full power .44 magnum loads and inadequate crimp,recoil works like an inertial bullet puller,the rounds can get longer,and even tie up the cylinder.

I'd be a bit leary of looking for "pressure signs".IMO,those apply more in the pressure range of modern,strong centerfire rifle actions,such as the 98 Mauser design.The pressure signs that may occur at 65,000 psi in a rifle are not so useful if you are trying to work in the 38,000 psi range.

For your handgun,a better plan might be to use the VV loading data ,your bullet mfg'rs loading data to get a good idea of where max is,then also use your chronograph to verify the results.There is a correlation between velocity and pressure that is more reliable than reading primers or ease of extraction.Pay attention to those signs,of course,but is,hypothetically,a 6 in bbl max load is 1325 fps ,and you get to 1300 with a 4 1/2 in bbl,I would not add more powder.

A really critical mental discipline will be the follow through/calling the shot.Make sre you can "freeze" the image of the sight picture in your mind at recoil,and know where the shot went on the target,as,"a 7 at 3 oclock"

If you can do that,your eyes were not closed.

Have fun!
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Old March 16, 2013, 06:29 PM   #48
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Pond-your listing velocities from a 4 inch barrel. Compare the velocities you're getting with what shows in a variety of manuals for same bullet weight/type/powder. Most manuals use a longer 7.5-8 inch barrel, and can be expected up to aprox 1400 fps. Getting 1280 fps would seem reasonable, especially when staying within the commonly used charge weights for N-110. Getting 1336 fps with a 240 grain jacketed bullet from 4 incher is getting up there.

You already split one case, although there can be a variety of reasons for it.

Notice how much your velocity jumped when going up the second step, when working up tp 21.0 grains with the 240 grain bullet? This can be an indication of increasing pressure, not neccessarily the pressure is getting too high.

Have you ever chronographed a 240 grain hunting load from this particualar pistol?

Last edited by zeke; March 16, 2013 at 06:36 PM.
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Old March 17, 2013, 03:59 AM   #49
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Notice how much your velocity jumped when going up the second step, when working up tp 21.0 grains with the 240 grain bullet?
If I look back over this thread, I see these averages (although often only from a 5 shot string):
240gr Bullet on N110 powder:

19.5gr: av 1200 ft/s
20gr: av 1171 ft/s
20.5gr: av 1283ft/s
21gr: One shot not registered. Av:1311.
21.2gr: One shot not registered. Av:1336.
21.5gr: One shot not registered. Av:1346.

So the biggest leap was between 20gr and 20.5gr, but after than the loads from 20.5 to 21.5 are, once more, relatively linear and not so great.

Do I need to re-evaluate my load, or do some further chrono tests?
Quote:
Have you ever chronographed a 240 grain hunting load from this particualar pistol?
No. The only factory rounds I have found are Sellier & Bellot and Magtech. Both SJSP 240gr. The online data show them at about 1180FPS. They feel pretty mild by comparison, but then I wanted to get the most out of this load.

Quote:
For your handgun,a better plan might be to use the VV loading data ,your bullet mfg'rs loading data to get a good idea of where max is,then also use your chronograph to verify the results.There is a correlation between velocity and pressure that is more reliable than reading primers or ease of extraction.Pay attention to those signs,of course,but is,hypothetically,a 6 in bbl max load is 1325 fps ,and you get to 1300 with a 4 1/2 in bbl,I would not add more powder.
I was not able to get exact data for this bullet. It is a PRVI from a Serbian company. It is actually a pretty nicely profiled bullet: nice, big, meplat. SO I took all the N110 240gr jacketed data I could find and extrapolated a reasonably safe starting load of 19gr, and worked up from there.

As I asked in the paragraph above, does the jump between 19.5/20gr and 20.5 and beyond raise any alarms for you?
(Bear in mind that there seemed to be some strange readings for the 20gr string actually giving lower velocities than 19.5gr! )

For what it is worth, 21gr was going to be my final load: no greaeter.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:25 AM   #50
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The 100 fps jump in velocity when going from 20.0 grains to 20.5 grains would get my attention, especially when velocity increases kept decreasing as the charges went up further. Remembering these are average velocitys, and individual velocitys were higher and lower. Am of opinion pressure and charge changes are not a linear (straight line) relationship. Getting individual readings in the mid 1300's from a 4.some inch barrel would also get my attention.

Personally, i would not consider the small increase in velocity from 20.5 to 21.0 grains worth it, unless something else was in play. (like loading specifically for a Ruger Redhawk, which is reported to be stronger than the revolvers i load for). This is a conservative approach, as velocity readings can vary substancially between revolvers of same model and make.

You are already being more detailed and thorough than alot of reloaders, but still prefer to get factory loads chrono'd from a particular pistol to consider as a baseline.

But like they say, it's just an opinion, which was asked for. In the end it is your opinion that matters.
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