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Old January 10, 2013, 08:02 AM   #1
SerenityNetworks
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New CZ - (Very) Disappointing Test Fire

Okay, I'm not panicked yet, but I am concerned. I just received my new CZ 527 Varmint in .204. With it came a test fire sheet (see attached image). It is not impressive.

I'm new enough to the sport that I don't know if a group measurement is supposed to be center-to-center or edge-to-edge, so I have two measurements. 10/16ths or 13/16ths at 50 meters. Converting to yards that's 1.14 MOA at best or 1.49 MOA at worst.

I haven't been at this long, but using a sling and laying prone I can shoot 1.5 MOA with factory ammo using my old Browing BBR 30.06 that has a tapered barrel. Needless to say I'm not impressed at all with this CZ test sheet. I expected this rifle to be a tack driver. I'm not going to be shooting PDs at 300 yards reliably if this is all the better it will shoot. I could even miss a coyote! Obviously the test fires were done with factory ammo, but still...

I'm hoping there is some factor of which I'm unaware that explains the wide group. I'm going to be incredibly disappointed (actually I'm thinking of a much more perjorative word right now) if this is a 1.5 MOA rifle.

Any thoughts? Should I be concerned?

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Old January 10, 2013, 08:23 AM   #2
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Google "on target software" it will help you measure your groups easier.



As far as your test target, that is all it is. Don't worry about it go out and find the ammunition or load that your rifle likes. I'm sure it will tighten up the groups.
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:32 AM   #3
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CZ does not shoot rifles for accuracy , they fire as a function check only , with one " stock " loading and not much attention to the target . The included target just means that yes indeed it will poke holes in paper , not how well it will shoot .
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:48 AM   #4
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That test target is just over moa. Measure center to center. With quality ammo it should shoot better, as stated earlier they only use what they have on hand. Get a few premium loads and see what it will do. And let us know
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Old January 10, 2013, 10:35 AM   #5
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Thanks guys. I was hoping such might be the case. But having never seen something like this before, it certainly had me worried. It will probably be a few weeks before I can get a scope on the rifle and head to the range. But I will let you know.

Thanks again,
Andrew

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Old January 10, 2013, 10:40 AM   #6
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With proper ammo I would be very suprised if the CZ 204 would not shoot
.750 or less at 100 yards.
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:37 PM   #7
RC20
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Maybe a European thing but why bother if you are going to shoot a gun and not use something quality if you produce a target.

I agree with the OP that its kind of a half assed effort.

And hopefully the mfg of the gun is not that way.

And if you go center to center, that is 1 1/4 and its only a 3 shot group.

If you go edge to edge you subtract the diameter of the bullet.
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:59 PM   #8
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I purchased the rifle with the reviews and reports consistently showing it as shooting between 0.5 and 0.75 MOA (closer to 0.75 with factory ammo and better with reloads). That's why I started this thread. I know a lot of folks here shoot CZs and have the same Varmint model, so I figured they could tell me whether their guns shoot better than the test sheet or not.

Still, it seems an odd practice to send me a sheet that says, 'here's your 1+
MOA rifle, this is your warranty, regardless that you thought you were getting a sub-MOA gun'. It is very disconcerting to a rifle noob like me.

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Old January 10, 2013, 02:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Still, it seems an odd practice to send me a sheet that says, 'here's your 1+
MOA rifle, this is your warranty, regardless that you thought you were getting a sub-MOA gun'. It is very disconcerting to a rifle noob like me.

I think you have every reason to feel disconcerted. What if the rifle was packed with a target that showed a five inch group? Would this be cause for concern on the part of the buyer? Would me. And, if all the test target was made to convey is that the rifle "functions", why bother to even use sights? Just shoot the rifle a few times at a blank sheet of paper at the range of a foot or so, just to prove to the customer that the firearm actually "works".
I do agree with others that experimenting with different loads should produce a "winner" in terms of moa, or less (better) accuracy. No reason to "panic" at this point in time.
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Old January 10, 2013, 04:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Still, it seems an odd practice to send me a sheet that says, 'here's your 1+ MOA rifle, this is your warranty, regardless that you thought you were getting a sub-MOA gun'. It is very disconcerting to a rifle noob like me.
If CZ doesn't guarantee a sub MOA gun you should never assume you are buying one. Some rifles need to settle in and then it might shoot anything you feed it well. Besides even a lot of rifles that guarantee MOA don't shoot that because the shooter can't shoot MOA, then they are upset that they didn't buy the accuracy that they wanted.
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Old January 10, 2013, 05:25 PM   #11
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Those 3 shots were the first shots out of a new and clean barrel. Not only that I am going to guess they used the cheapest ammo they can get. Next they put the rifle in a mechanical rest. Load a round, use the mechanical trigger. Round fires, they repeat for a 3 shot group. Also they did not use a scope. Most factories do not.

Ok now clean your rifle well. When you start with sighting it in. Note your accuracy is going to look like that for the first few shots till the right amount of carbon is deposited in the barrel, and then groups will settle.

Also hand loading will allow you to tune a good load for that rifle. I have a 527 American in .221 Rem Fireball. The factory target showed it to be about 1 MOA. The first group I shot out of it was 5 shots into one hole that measured a half inch wide.

Oh and while you are at it. Show off some pics of that rifle. Then go shoot it. I would suggest getting a bipod. Then use a small sand bag for under the rear to stabilize it. (I used fish tank rocks in a baggie srapped into two socks. for a long time.) move the rear bag forward or back to go up or down. This will increase your accuracy potential greatly.
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Old January 10, 2013, 11:55 PM   #12
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Does CZ claim to be a sub 1moa rifle anywhere in it's advertising? I haven't checked.

A member on the board found out my humble x39 carbine is sub MOA with handloads. I'm sure your surgical 204 would do the same.
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Old January 11, 2013, 01:26 AM   #13
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I just finished working up loads for my CZ 527 in 223. It shot MOA out of the box. After working up a load it likes with Sierra MatchKing Bullets it shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Test target that came with mine was way larger than MOA for 50 meters.

I'm sure your rifle will shoot MOA and if you find what it likes it will poke nice little holes for you.
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Old January 11, 2013, 09:23 AM   #14
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204 is a nice round , Find the bullet your rifle likes and you will see how CZ's shoot. Enjoy the rifle, BE Safe Chris
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Old January 11, 2013, 11:46 AM   #15
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Get it broken in , find the ammo or handload it likes , and become familiar with the trigger and the feel of the gun . If it still won't shoot MOA , that's the time to get your panties in a bunch !
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Old January 11, 2013, 06:43 PM   #16
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Thanks guys. I'm reassured.

I got the scope, rings, and base ordered today. Maybe next weekend I can have it put together, although it may be a week or two more before I can get it to a range. But as soon as it is assembled then I'll take a picture and get it posted. I really like the matte finish to the metal and wood. It's not as 'pretty' as some rifles, but it's just what I like to take into the field. Once it gets some wear on it then it will look perfect.

Thanks again,
Andrew

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Old January 11, 2013, 07:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
10/16ths or 13/16ths at 50 meters. Converting to yards that's 1.14 MOA at best or 1.49 MOA at worst.
These groups were at 50 meters, and not at 100 yards... Right? Were you at a sturdy bench, wind velocity? Any other variables that could cause a group to widen? If you were doing everything on your part, then these groups really suck. If I were you I would do as others have suggested and get some good ammo like Hornady, and test on a good weather day.
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Old January 11, 2013, 07:42 PM   #18
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Coyota that was the test group fired at the factory to shot that the gun will shoot without blowing up. It is a test mostly for function. It is fired with no scope. They set it in a lead sled look through the barrel to see the target. Place the bolt in. Load with 3 rounds. Fire, cycle the bolt, fire, and repeat. That is from the clean brand new bore. It will do a lot better once cleaned. A few fouling shots are fired, and then sighted in.
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Old January 11, 2013, 11:43 PM   #19
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CZs are crap!! No, I'm just kidding, I've never shot one.

I have a rifle that shoots about 1.25" groups at 100 yards with standard hunting ammo, but will shoot about .7" groups with FGMM, that's a pretty big difference.

Ammo selection is huge when it comes to accuracy. Go get some trigger time and tell us what you find out!
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:21 AM   #20
phil mcwilliam
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You are worrying about the accuracy of a brand new rifle that you have not yet shot. Since you say you are relatively new to the sport of shooting, my advice would be to put your accuracy concerns on hold until you actually shoot the rifle.
I own a couple of CZ rifles & have found them to be very accurate, but like any rifle you will have to try various types of ammunition to see which groups best out of your rifle.
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Old January 12, 2013, 07:55 AM   #21
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Before you shoot it, run a patch through the bore, make sure the action screws are tight and run a few thicknesses of paper down the barrel channel to see if the metal is too close to wood (if it's supposed to be free-floating).

Then, pick up several makes/weights of factory rounds to test the rifle with. Make sure you fire the rifle for groups from both front and rear rests at a bench.

Don't worry about the first couple of shots. Just shoot them at 25 yards to get a rough scope zero, then move to 100 and start getting a little more serious.
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Old January 15, 2013, 11:19 AM   #22
SerenityNetworks
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Just to follow up: I did drop a note to CZ to ask about the matter. They replied. Below is an excerpt from the email chain.

"Our accuracy spec is 1” at 50 yards, but most all of them are much better than that. The .204 is one that is especially accurate typically. Many times our bore specs are a bit different than other manufacturers, leading to a bit better accuracy... ... The test targets are simply fired for function testing, not accuracy. I’m not even sure that they fit a scope to rifles without sights, I’ve never seen any marks on the dovetails that would indicate they do. So don’t worry about the test target, it’s no indication of the accuracy of the rifle."

Right now, I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of the scope and rings, so I can get out to the range and check it out!

Thanks for all the input,
Andrew

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Last edited by SerenityNetworks; January 15, 2013 at 11:28 AM.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:03 PM   #23
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It was almost surely fired in a machine rest for the test, so the operator may not have even been looking down the barrel. No need for scope or sights, just clamp it in, pull the trigger and operate the bolt.

I've heard nothing but good things about CZ, so I doubt you will be disappointed. I have a couple of rifles that are very capable of half inch groups (with handloads, one is a .204 in fact) although some days I just can't shoot that well. Enjoy!
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Old January 17, 2013, 08:43 PM   #24
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like others have said CZ's "test target" aren't anything to worry about. i don't have any CZ centerfire but have several CZ rimfires from .22lr,.17hm2, and .17hmr and they all shot better than the included "test target". let us know what you find out when you actually sit down behind the rifle and put a few down range. i will be very surprised if its over moa barring you are a terrible shot. remember even a .25moa rifle if inaccurate in the wrong hands.
good luck,
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Old January 18, 2013, 08:59 AM   #25
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I have a CZ 527 Varmint with Kevlar stock in .223.
It came with a pretty nice test target.

The worst group I shot with factory ammo at 100 yards when I first got it was 1.159.
Luckly, the first group that it ever shot with factory ammo was 0.245 and averaged 0.416 so I wasn't worried when that horrendous group occurred.
Turned out the rifle didn't like the weight and speed combination.

When I switched to hand loads, the picture got much more positive and hand loads shoot much better than with factory ammo.
Its top 25 hand loads average under 0.350 with bullet weights from 40 grains to 63 grains including target and hunting bullets. The average of every hand load I ever shot (1147 measured so far) is 0.534. And that includes all the loads that were at the low end of the load tables. My .223 seems to like to be in the high middle area of velocities.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about your CZ until you shoot it with a variety of ammos.

One of my range buddies has a .204 that also shoots very accurately and has a great record in dispatching ground hogs but it seems to have very strong preferences for bullet shape and velocity.
Don't be surprised if some ammo shoots really well and some others don't.
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