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Old December 29, 2012, 11:30 AM   #26
TMD
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+P and +P+ ammo was develoved for one reason and one reason only. For people who feel that the gun they have in inadequate and wish they had a bigger gun.
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Old December 29, 2012, 12:02 PM   #27
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Utter nonsense.
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Old December 29, 2012, 12:57 PM   #28
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There are margins of safety built into modern 9mm weapon designs which include the pressures from the widely used Winchester Ranger 127gr. 9mm +P+. I have no qualms about shooting this Winchester factory ammo in any of my various 9mm firearms. I don't use a steady diet of this ammo, as my practice ammo is typically standard 9mm ball target/range fodder. But I have no problem shooting the Ranger +P+, now and then. Nor do I have any problem shooting +P loads... They are only barely hotter than standard stuff anyway... No big deal as far as I'm concerned.

I won't shoot ANY reloads except those I make myself. Nor will I shoot factory ammo from any makers other than Speer, Federal, Winchester, PMC, or Remington. Just my preferences, that's all.

Gun manufacturers routinely issue disclaimers against any reloaded ammo and, often, against +P ammo, generally as a matter of legally covering their bases.

Can use of +P and +P+ accelerate wear as compared to standard fodder? Sure. But you'd have to shoot a heck of a lot of it to notice a difference. Shooting some of it now and then, for me, is insignificant. I use +P and Ranger +P+ as carry loads, not as full time range use loads.

As for what to feed your guns... You should use your own best judgement, and stay within your personal comfort zone.

Last edited by DHart; January 1, 2013 at 03:50 PM.
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Old December 31, 2012, 10:45 PM   #29
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Just stumbling through...

... And read this entire thread. Informative info indeed. My concern for my two personal 9mm Glocks the wife and I own, is should I run the Winchester "Super Unleaded" 147 grain ammo I found through them? What in comparison to this would be called +P or +P+???
Signed, Fraidie cat!
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
My concern for my two personal 9mm Glocks the wife and I own, is should I run the Winchester "Super Unleaded" 147 grain ammo I found through them? What in comparison to this would be called +P or +P+???
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Super Unleaded", but I'll assume you're talking about Ranger T-series, catalog #RA9T, or the superseded but very similar Ranger SXT, #RA9SXT.

These loads are standard-pressure and NOT +P or +P+. IMHO they are excellent ammo with performance that gives up little to most mainstream +P loads. They are arguably a top choice for people who dislike the sharp recoil and pronounced muzzle flash of most +P loadings; since they use heavier bullets at lower velocities, they have more "pushy" and less "snappy" recoil characteristics than most other 9mm SD ammo.

The heavier bullets make them slightly harder on the gun than lighter-bullet loads, but your Glock won't even notice.
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Old January 1, 2013, 03:56 PM   #31
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I'm a firm believer in shooting full-weight, original-caliber-design specification bullet weights: that would be 230 gr. in .45acp, 180 gr. in .40, and 147 gr. or 124 gr. (minimum) in 9mm.

Especially in the notoriously snappy (bordering on unpleasant, for many folks) .40 caliber, I find the 180 gr. loadings much more comfortable to shoot, and much easier to shoot well than the lighter weight bullet loads.
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Old January 1, 2013, 05:09 PM   #32
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Pumpkin, I would feel safe in shooting +P+ plus ammunition in a Glock.
Several years back I was given several cases of Hirtenberger +P+ sub-gun ammo and put a couple of thousand rounds thru my G17, with nary an issue.
I also fired a few thru a Ruger P94 and within a couple of hundred rounds the barrel shroud started developing a crack. The gun was sent to Ruger and a new barrel was installed free of cherge. The gun also came back with a nice note telling me to no longer shoot that stuff thrugh their gun, Thank you very much!

P.S.
I thought ALL manufacturers recomemded to not shoot reloaded ammunition at all. Their way to void warranties.

With Glock, I belive the issue is with most reloads being lead and lead not being compatible with the polygonal rifling used by them. The lead smears on the rifling and fills the grooves, causing pressure to climb to unsafe pressures. That is why reloaders replace the barrel with a conventionally rifled barrel. So the lead has something to bite into, not cause of quality issues.
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Old January 1, 2013, 05:20 PM   #33
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Ammo loads

Carguychris, the box is Winchester 9mm, silver box, and says right on it "super Unleaded". 147 grain. I've read it has not Ben produced for maybe a year. I'd never seen it until I ran across a guy that had some extra. Just don't know how I should classify it. Don't want to damage the guns.
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Old January 1, 2013, 05:51 PM   #34
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I don't see a problem with +P ammunition in a gun designated by the manufacturer as safe for +P use. I do think going to +P+, or +P loads in calibers not listed by SAAMI as having +P standards is getting into the area of Tim the Tool Man Taylor. Uhm, Uhm, Uhm, more power! And if you watched the TV show, you know what usually happened to him!
If you just don't have confidence in the power of the gun you have, it's time to get something larger. Probably not really necessary, but if it makes you feel better go for it.
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Old January 1, 2013, 06:00 PM   #35
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I'm a firm believer in shooting full-weight, original-caliber-design specification bullet weights... 147 gr. or 124 gr. (minimum) in 9mm.
FWIW 147gr 9mm ammo is a relatively recent development- early 1980s IIRC. Also IIRC, German military bullets started out at 124gr and progressed to 115gr and then 108gr due to raw material shortages late in WWII. For many years, American commercial manufacturers largely stuck with these 3 weights. The 147gr bullet was intended to maintain decent muzzle energy while keeping the bullet subsonic when used in a ~10"bbl submachine gun with a suppressor.

I have a copy of the "Gun Digest Book of 9mm Handguns" published in 1986; it includes a test of almost every commercial 9mm load from the major US manufacturers along with some foreign firms and boutique companies, and the heaviest bullet in the test is 124gr. Several SD loads had bullets in the 95-100gr range, as conventional wisdom at the time was to maximize velocity to ensure reliable expansion. Times have changed.
Quote:
Carguychris, the box is Winchester 9mm, silver box, and says right on it "super Unleaded". 147 grain.
My bad, I hadn't heard of it! However, after a little Googling, it seems like most sources seem to agree that it's basically RA9SXT with a different bullet. It's still a standard pressure load. Fire away.
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Old January 6, 2013, 02:01 PM   #36
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I was reading about colt or S&W and read it said after a year of shooting +p loads send your gun in to have the frame checked for stretching or something. I decided right there no +P in any of my guns. with a poly frame im thinking its best to be safe than sorry.
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Old January 6, 2013, 09:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
FWIW 147gr 9mm ammo is a relatively recent development- early 1980s IIRC. Also IIRC, German military bullets started out at 124gr and progressed to 115gr and then 108gr due to raw material shortages late in WWII. For many years, American commercial manufacturers largely stuck with these 3 weights. The 147gr bullet was intended to maintain decent muzzle energy while keeping the bullet subsonic when used in a ~10"bbl submachine gun with a suppressor.
carguychris... thanks for that info on 147 gr. 9mm bullet weight. My preference is for at least 124 gr. in this caliber, if not 147 gr. I'm not a fan of 115 gr. except as target fodder.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:12 AM   #38
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Does anybody here actually believe that a company like Winchester would manufacture ammo designed, generally, "for l.e. use only," that wouldn't be safe to fire in a Glock, which is the pistol used by 70% of all l.e. agencies?? That would be truly absurd, wouldn't it??
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:39 PM   #39
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Why plus p ammo to begin with?
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Old January 9, 2013, 01:06 PM   #40
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Why not?
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Old January 9, 2013, 01:21 PM   #41
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SAAMI.org; +P+, owner's manual...

I'd learn more about ammunition; www.saami.org .
FWIW; many owner's manuals like SIG Sauer & M&Ps state not to shoot +P+.
My local PD issues the SIG P226R in 9x19mm, the police use Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP.
If you do plan to use +P+ , it may wear out your pistol faster but it's potent stuff. It could void the service warranty too.
I've used Ranger T in the past & would buy the impressive Buffalo Bore +P+ 124gr FMJ FN for spare pistol magazines/limited use.
I wouldn't shoot 100s of +P+ rounds but it has some value.
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Old January 9, 2013, 01:44 PM   #42
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Aside from competitive shooters the casual shooter (range once a week shooting (If that) 100 rounds or less) is never going to ware out your pistol.

Glocks and other pistols get stress tested well beyond what we would ever do even a fraction of and report little to no failures.

Most of use baby our guns. Shooting +p or +p+ loads as much as most of us shoot is not going to ware out your gun before your too old to shoot it anymore.
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Old January 9, 2013, 03:15 PM   #43
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Not true...

If you talk to any tactics or firearm instructors, like Massad Ayoob, John Shaw(Mid South), Clint Smith, James Yeager, etc they can tell you of pistols that break or have frames crack.
It's rare but it does happen. Weapons are designed to withstand 1,000s of rounds but some wear out or break.
To my knowledge, the HK USP & P2000 series are one of the few that say they can handle +P+ rated ammunition.

Alloy frames like the 92FS/M9 or SIG P226/P229 are not ideal for regular +P/+P+.
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Old January 9, 2013, 08:42 PM   #44
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Most of us probabaly don't have access to chamber pressure testing machines. Some, myself included, suspect the published figures and the motives of ammunition producers and gun rag authors of the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s

Just going by relative 'feel', 'sound', apperance, and how vigorus a given pistol slings different flavors of brass seems to be about the best guesstimation yardstick availabe.

With that bit of warped reasoning in mind, the Federal 9 BP LE +p+ seems milder than some std velocity rounds. Thats in the same Mk 3 European trade-in BHP, a 228, and a K9.

It may be a good thing that I can't afford to shoot a gawdawful bunch of the 9BPLE, but, so far,there haven't been any signs of battering and no sheared extractor hooks.
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Old January 10, 2013, 09:52 PM   #45
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thanks C-G-C

I thank you and all the others for their imput on this.

All hail the mighty Glock~!

Ok, I'm somewhat biased...
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