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Old January 4, 2013, 10:47 PM   #1
SC4006
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Fired my first 10mm handgun

The brother and I went to the range today with a couple of guns, and hoping to rent the Ruger Super Redhawk snubbie in .454 they have... but they had just run out of ammo for it. So we browsed through their rentals and decided to just go with a Glock 20. After shooting my S&W 4006 for awhile, I was very surprised to find that I couldn't notice much difference in recoil when shooting the Glock. Of course most factory 10mm loads aren't very hot (we were shooting remington UMC), but even then I certainly did notice a difference in the muzzle blast of the 10mm compared to the .40 S&W. Every shot from that thing lit up the entire side of the indoor range, and made quite a bang as well. Overall I really liked the 10mm, very controllable imo, with a lot of power and as a bonus puts on a nice light show .
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Old January 5, 2013, 12:04 AM   #2
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Remington lists the muzzle velocity of their 180 gr. load at 1,150 fps which would be pretty hot for a .40 SW but not for the 10mm (assuming it really shoots at 1,150 fps). I don't shoot .40 SW but I can really tell the difference in .45 acp and 10mm. The .45 is not nearly as snappy as the 10mm.
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Old January 5, 2013, 08:49 PM   #3
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If you like the 4006, find yourself a 1006. You won't be disappointed.
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Old January 6, 2013, 04:12 PM   #4
SC4006
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Quote:
If you like the 4006, find yourself a 1006. You won't be disappointed.
Yeah I've thought about the 1006, I'm more of a rifle guy myself but I would definitely like a 10mm handgun.
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:39 PM   #5
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One day I will get a 1006 or Delta Elite, one day.
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:53 PM   #6
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It moved a little when you said "Delta Elite". For now I have to subsist on my G21 10mm conversion. Which aint bad, BTW, for the cost.
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:57 PM   #7
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I picked up a Glock 20 last month and I have found the same to be true.

Low recoil compared to calibers like .40 and .45 ACP.

I have loaded up some rounds that are in the "HOT" range and even those were not as I would have expected.
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Old January 7, 2013, 06:21 PM   #8
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Shhhiiissss! DON"T tell any one about the 10mm thing! You'll have everyone wanting a 10mm gun!
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Old January 7, 2013, 06:30 PM   #9
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10mm recoil on G20 and G29 is LESS than 40 or 45 in similar guns.

I actually prefer shooting a G29 to a G30.

Most factory ammo has a pretty tame muzzle velocity and is close to some of the hotter 40s, but the Buffalo Bore stuff has one hell of a kick to it.
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Old January 8, 2013, 09:51 PM   #10
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SC, not suprised you experienced little difference in recoil between the 10 and the .40, or about the "light show" with the Remington-UMC ammo. I've done a fair amount of chronographing of factory and reloaded 10MM since my first 10MM, a Bren Ten back around '83-84, IIRC. The Rem-UMC load is one I have not chronographed, but I would be surprsed if it got anywhere near 1150 FPS now days. Most factory 10MM ammo of the last ~20 years seems to be drawing closer to duplicating .40 S&W ballistics, than what the 10MM cartridge is safely capable of. With some modern factory ammo, I can see why some shooters wonder why anybody would bother with 10MM, since ballistics are about the same as published .40 S&W. I have shot a fair amount of the Remington .45 185 grain JHP non-+P and 9MM 115 grain JHP +P over the last dozen years or so and find that both give a very bright flash in low light, similar to what you have described. Not such a good thing for duty or carry ammo I think...

I'm still a fan of the "real" 10MM and after the Ben Ten had Glock, Colt, Kimber, S&W( semi-auto and revolver), Ruger Blackhawk, etc. 10MMs. While I am a died-in-the-wool 1911 guy, I have come to prefer the S&Ws in 10MM over the 1911 types. The S&Ws, with their greater slide mass seem to handle the real 10MM ammo with boring reliability, but without Warp 9.5 slide velocities, heavy recoil springs, buffers, etc. of the 1911 10MM platform.

Ps, "Real" 10MM to me means loads like Norma's original 200 grains at a chronographed ( in 5" bbl.) 1200+ FPS, Norma 170 at ~1300 FPS, Buffalo Bore 180 JHP at 1380 FPS, Winchester's 175 Silver Tip at 1270FPS, etc. or similar reloads...ymmv
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Old January 9, 2013, 06:54 AM   #11
thedudeabides
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You pretty much summed it up--modern 10mm is VERY close to 40. Unless you reload or get hotter ammo.

Which most modern 10mm's with a fully supported barrel can handle.
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Old January 9, 2013, 09:59 AM   #12
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For those who have come to know and appreciate the 10mm for its ballistic ability we have this chart to give some indications of potential...


Please feel free to visit the 10mmfirearms website for more info...
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10m...-ammo-history/

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Old January 9, 2013, 12:31 PM   #13
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I like to load my 10mm rounds with Power Pistol powder, as even if the bullets are moving at only .40 S&W velocities, I still get full 10mm-levels of shock and awe.
Jeff Cooper's intent for the 10mm was a 200gr bullet with an impact velocity of 1000fps. Assuming a 50yd limit, that would be 1050fps at the muzzle. A far cry from the "magnum" rounds cooked-up by D&D and Norma.
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Old January 9, 2013, 05:32 PM   #14
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10mm is pretty sweet. I have a glock 20 (gen2?) which I blew the mag catch in half using reloads I bought at the range. Poor chamber support, be careful what you feed your glock! But it does feed reliably.

I have a couple of 10mm EAA witnesses I love to shoot, the large frame CZ is great for me. I had to swap the compact over to a .40 barrel, the round is just too hot for it to handle reliably.
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Old November 4, 2014, 09:25 PM   #15
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I really like that chart! I used it to order ammo today. Some ammo I had in my shopping cart(s) I deleted due to it being "Nuclear". I don't want to damage my new Delta Elite. Anyone know of a chart like that for .45 ACP, .357 Magnum and / or .44 Magnum?
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Old November 5, 2014, 05:52 AM   #16
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My mouth waters every time I see a post about a 10mm. My next gun is going to be a Witness Elite Match. I will not stray. I will not pick up any bargain guns that deter me from my goal. I will have a 10mm in the next month or 2. This is a rough hobby!
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Old November 5, 2014, 12:33 PM   #17
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10mm Javelina

I have had a 10mm for around 20 years, a IAI Javelina. Back in the day they were sold at almost give away prices so I got one and it shot very well right out of the box. Hammer bite was awful so I hacked in a commander hammer and beaver-tail safety. The pistol is so easy on brass most everything I have from back then still hasn't split or did the "smiley" thing at the case head. Now in fairness I have a lot of guns so I don't shoot it all of the time so I am sure that had an impact. I also didn't think I was loading all that hot as the primers looked good and the recoil was no issue. My two favorite bullets were the old Hornady 180 XTP and a RCBS cast gas check bullet that weighs out around 207 grains. Shooting some across my chronograph surprised me with the 180s around 1252 and the 207s about 100 fps less.



I do lurk over at the 10mm site some. The_Shadow and his fellow posters have a LOT of good information, better than any other site I have been to yet. I also blame them for my latest wish item, I just ordered a supposedly unfired Ruger 10mm/38-40. I almost hope it is not unfired as I am getting it to shoot and my guess is it would handle some heavy-nuke loads if I was so inclined.
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Old November 5, 2014, 12:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
10mm is pretty sweet. I have a glock 20 (gen2?) which I blew the mag catch in half using reloads I bought at the range. Poor chamber support, be careful what you feed your glock!
I was resizing 10mm cases last night, and among them were cases from Double Tap, purveyors of factory "nuclear" ammo, and those cases, fired in a Glock (characteristic firing pin marks) were quite visibly bulged.
When I've seen bulged cases from a Delta Elite, the bulge is just ahead of the extractor groove where the case is unsupported, but the cases I was handling last night were bulged along the entire lower half, as if the chamber diameter is too large.
I won't be pushing the pressures when reloading these cases!
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Old November 5, 2014, 04:15 PM   #19
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I fired one back when it was first released. I probably fired ammo from the first released lot of Norma. Back when it was called "magnum."

Not pleasant. But, back at the time, the biggest things commonly available ranged in power from the .44 magnum down. Anyone who willingly subjects themselves to the .454 casull in a "compact" revolver is going to feel very differently than I did at the time, especially as I was shooting full house magnum loads, and the biggest thing that I had ever handled at the time were .44 magnum large revolvers.
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Old November 5, 2014, 09:08 PM   #20
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Fired one in 1911 style myself earlier this week. I concurr it isn't what it's made out to be. Too bad I'd done bought the .40 due to its ammo availability. I think it is also a sweet shooting gun.
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Old November 6, 2014, 06:44 AM   #21
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Its a fun round to play with, very versatile. You can go from mild .40 power loads up to the nuclear type loads. I've a Gen 3 G20 and a Gen 3 29 SF both of which offer really decent case support.

Heres what I have noticed when it comes to these guns. Accuracy is such a finicky thing, some guns/ammo combos are inherently more accurate than others. I shot these with Hornady and Winchester SD rounds and accuracy was acceptable but in my mind could have been a bit better. I also chronoed these loads and they were up there velocity wise, it was kind of all over the place. The 29 seemed to exhibit this less than the 20. Once I started loading up my own rounds for it I noticed the same pattern, accuracy was decent but velocity was all over the place. Also seemed like the hotter the load the bigger the groups got. Again the 20 did not seem to show this as much as the 29. Everything I have seen says they have the same weight recoil spring. Not sure if the dual spring setup while being the same overall weight reacts differently in the early stages of firing.

Started researching as much as I could about 10mm and came to the conclusion that for the hotter loads I needed a heavier recoil spring. I elected to toy with only the 20, picked up some heavier recoil springs. Sure enough the heavier the spring the more consistent velocities became and groups tightened up, to a certain point. Finally settled on a spring weight that worked well with my hotter reloads, plinking reloads, and factory SD ammo allowing everything to cycle without a hiccup. The factory spring weight that the Glocks are currently shipping with seems to work just fine for factory plinking loads and most SD loads. If you move up to Doubletap, Buffalo Bore, or really hot handloads you may want to consider moving to a heavier spring. The lighter ones allow the slide to start moving really early in the firing process and may be robbing you of some accuracy and velocity.

Above all else keep in mind this cartridge and the guns chambered for it have their limits.
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Old November 6, 2014, 07:09 AM   #22
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The G20 is the only glock I've ever owned, and I'd love to have another for a woods gun.

Buy a 40 barrel and load 40's for fun on the range, save your 10 brass for hotter loads.
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Old November 6, 2014, 09:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
* * * Jeff Cooper's intent for the 10mm was a 200gr bullet with an impact velocity of 1000fps. Assuming a 50yd limit, that would be 1050fps at the muzzle. A far cry from the "magnum" rounds cooked-up by D&D and Norma.
Just to clarify, ... during the early days of the .40G&A project of the mid-to-late 1970s, which used a modified BHP, Cooper wanted to obtain a muzzle-velocity of 1050fps for the 180gn they were experimenting with. They found, instead, that they were actually getting 1100fps-1200fps easily; yet, the 180gn bullet was the limit for the .40G&A, falling short of Cooper's ideal weight of 200-grains. As Cooper had envisioned it, the theoretical "optimum" for a .40-caliber autoloading cartridge called for ".40/200gns/1000fps."

Cooper branched off from the work on the .40G&A cartridge (which, not coincidentally, has a COAL nearly identical to the .40S&W) and went with D&D to develop a longer .40 cartridge that would operate on the .45acp platform and feed-cycle. Again, it's no coincidence that the .45 and 10mm share almost the same COAL. Initially, this longer cartridge was given the "working title" of ".40 Super" or ".40 Magnum," which later officially became the "10mm AUTO."

A .45 guru and advocate of the heavier bullet, Cooper knew that the longer case would allow for a 200gn "combat load," so he upped the ballistic goal for the new 10mm cartridge to use a 200gn bullet "with a muzzle velocity of 1100fps to enable a striking velocity of at least 1000fps at the target within typical combat pistol ranges."

D&D submitted design specs to Norma for a muzzle velocity of 1200fps, in order to retain a practical striking-velocity of 1100fps at 50yds, the extra 100fps being due to the possible need to penetrate intermediate barriers encountered in the field. Norma acknowledged, however, that actual muzzle velocity for the 200gn bullet from a 5" pistol was 1152fps.

According to D&D, during all the initial experiments and back-n-forth chronograph work, they were getting velocities with the 200gn bullet that hovered between "1100fps-1150fps," which they liked. But Cooper "thought [the 10mm] needed more power, and therefore, insisted on the ammo being above that. Cooper wanted at least a minimum velocity of 1150fps. * * * This resulted in the second Norma loading being [hotter] at 1150-1200fps."

For reference, see Ron Carrillo's book: "Bren Ten - The Heir Apparent," pp. 90-94.

It's a must-read book for owners of any 10mm pistol as well as for those interested in learning the inside story, and often the hidden-history, behind the development of the 10mm cartridge and the first 10mm pistol.

See: http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id85.html

Just FYI, ...

Last edited by agtman; November 6, 2014 at 10:23 AM.
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Old November 6, 2014, 10:29 AM   #24
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A muzzle velocity of 1125 would still be going 1100 at fifty yards.
After all was said and done, Cooper realized that there was no need for such long-range striking power (in a service pistol).
The .40 S&W is closer to being the realization of the original goal, than is a full-power 10.
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Old November 6, 2014, 01:22 PM   #25
agtman
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* * * After all was said and done, Cooper realized that there was no need for such long-range striking power (in a service pistol).
Well, his publicly expressed "regrets," in the form of concessionary statements of that sort, didn't appear until 2005 when Carrillo's book was published.

Cooper made it clear, circa 1983-84, that he had envisioned the 10mm to be the much needed middle-bore cartridge that would impart superior penetration against intermediate barriers and have "longer[er]-range striking power" than the .45acp for military use on the battlefield. The platform was to be the Bren Ten pistol. That was the prime reason Cooper wanted to keep Norma's 10mm ammo restricted to a "combat load" topped with a 200gn projectile in the form of a jacketed truncated cone (JTC). Carrillo details the very sharp and serious disagreement between Cooper and Dornaus and Dixon over their subsequent decision to expand the 10mm ammo line-up to a lighter-weight 170gn JHP for police and civilian use. Cooper was looking at the 10mm from a military prospective, whereas D&D were looking at it from a marketing prospective, particularly to cops and civilian shooters. In their eyes, there were no guarantees with military contracts. Cooper had hoped to see a military contract of some type to accelerate and fund wider production of the BT (hence, as enticement, "Special Forces" variants were built, essentially a 4.25" Commander-sized BT).

Quote:
The .40 S&W is closer to being the realization of the original goal, than is a full-power 10.
Not the FBI-Lite of 180gns @ 980fps.

Well before Cooper had Norma tweak up that final 10mm load, the old Cooper standard from the middle 1970s had consistently been: a .40-caliber slug of 200gns with a m.v. of at least 1000fps.

The FBI-Lite formula, which ammo-makers transferred directly from Federal's down-loaded 10mm for the Bureau to the first generation of commercial .40S&W ammo, is actually closer to some of the early .40G&A 180gn experiential loads.

It wasn't until the mid-2000s that DT, using special hybrid powders not available in the 1980s, produced a .40S&W load using a 200gn Hornady XTP with a m.v. of 1050fps/490fpe. That load satisfies the old Cooper standard from the '70s. Before that, no commercial ammo-maker made a 200gn .40 S&W load due to the KABOOM! risk.

ETA: currently, DT offers the Nosler 200gn JHP in .40S&W, still @ 1050fps, rather than Hornady's 200gn XTP.

See: http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...product_id=111


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