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Old January 8, 2013, 01:43 PM   #76
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
What many tax payers & people in the private sector do not understand is the huge cost & the budget issues related to stationing sworn LE officers in a school or on the school district property.
They don't know that SROs(school resource officers) earn about $30,000 to 100,000.00 depending on the LE agency & their time in service/time in grade. Most US cops do not make $9.00/hr like a unarmed security guard or work over-time for the PD/sheriffs office.
My county's mayor & the elected county sheriff both stated they don't have the $ to add more LE next year & will barely meet the requirements to deploy deputies in all schools for the end of this school year.
The "good guys with guns" concept is not practical in 2013. The local counties & cities do not have the $ to pay sworn LE personnel.
I'd also state that "volunteers" or "reserve security" wouldn't fly either due to civil liability & insurance issues. I can hear the lawyers screaming now if a school district wanted to go that route.
So police in schools would cost too much, and we certainly can't allow armed "civilians" to run around schools with guns, so the obvious solution is ...

We'll do nothing, while loudly proclaiming that nothing is more important to everyone involved than the lives and safety of our school children.

Does that about sum it up?
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:15 PM   #77
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Quote:
Does that about sum it up?
Very succinctly. And you didn't even use any bad words.
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:46 PM   #78
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Quote:
My county's mayor & the elected county sheriff both stated they don't have the $ to add more LE next year & will barely meet the requirements to deploy deputies in all schools for the end of this school year.
The "good guys with guns" concept is not practical in 2013. The local counties & cities do not have the $ to pay sworn LE personnel.
I'd also state that "volunteers" or "reserve security" wouldn't fly either due to civil liability & insurance issues. I can hear the lawyers screaming now if a school district wanted to go that route.
That is a bunch of bologna. It is a matter of political will and priorities.

I live in a rural Alabama County that is not known for it's wealth. We manage to afford to have an armed sheriff's deputy in every school. Our county also has a a solid reserve Deputy program as well. As reserve Deputies have to meet all the same requirements as regular deputies there is no reason why could not use reserve deputies to augment the deputy at each school.
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:51 PM   #79
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Or they could allow teachers and parents, on a volunteer basis, to concealed carry at school.

Cost - potentially nothing, literally, if volunteers are willing to pay state licensure fees, and NRA instructors are willing to volunteer some free classes.
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Old January 8, 2013, 03:10 PM   #80
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Joe Arpaio is going to try something in AZ using a sheriff's posse. It's a good idea; I hope he doesn't screw it up.
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Old January 8, 2013, 05:35 PM   #81
ClydeFrog
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$, school security, Run-Hide-Fight, LTC David Grossman...

First off, it's not politics or hot air, many schools & states are losing $(revenue) all across the nation. Many urban areas have closed schools, fired staff & teachers or stated to parents-PTAs that they have no $.
This was pre-Sandy Hook too. Did the $ fairy show up & throw out millions of $$$ to these communities in the last 3 weeks?
As I posted too, reserve deputies, citizen patrols or FAM-type armed guards are a good idea in theory but what about civil liability or insurance? Who picks up that cost? Who pays the lawyers when there is a ND or a use of force event?
I posted a response to a school security topic a few weeks ago explaining how a sworn deputy had to taser a pregnant 14yr old girl in a school fight.
Ask any police chief or county sheriff(not a guy who's brother knew a woman who dated a state trooper's barber) if they have use of force lawsuits or or if they are concerned about bad PR/civil rights violations.

I'd add that Lt Col(LTC) David Grossman's On Killing(2009 format) is a great read. He researched the topic & offers good insight.

I have serious issues with the "good guys with guns" policy. It's going to take more efforts than that to improve conditions in 2013.
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Old January 8, 2013, 05:48 PM   #82
markj
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I say cut back on spending towards the politicians and use the cash to hire off duty cops.
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Old January 8, 2013, 10:05 PM   #83
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^ That's what I was going to suggest!

Marginally decrease politicians pay and put it towards more officers or security measures in our schools. Politicians get paid around 6-figures anyway, they could use a paycut since they hardly do us any good...
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Old January 8, 2013, 10:38 PM   #84
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Fiscal cliff, pay cut...

If you followed the "fiscal cliff" news story, you'd already know that part of the agreement included a cut of the projected pay increase for law makers.

$ or procurement issues are not taken lightly by politicos. They have to do things a year to 2 years in advance. In a natural disaster like Super Storm Sandy or Katrina there are funds but that comes out of the FEMA/disaster $.
The poor economy & lack of $ is a burden to all US communities, big & small.

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Old January 8, 2013, 11:14 PM   #85
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
As I posted too, reserve deputies, citizen patrols or FAM-type armed guards are a good idea in theory but what about civil liability or insurance? Who picks up that cost? Who pays the lawyers when there is a ND or a use of force event?
What civil liability? If the states change their laws to allow anyone with a carry permit to carry on school grounds, there is no "civil liability" for a municipality or a school for failing to prohibit people from engaging in lawful activity.

"Use of force event"? What are you talking about? We're discussing securing schools against armed incursions. We aren't talking about making parents and/or community volunteers into school corridor monitors. Behavior of the students while in school has always been the purview of the teachers and administration and would continue to be. The armed volunteers would only be there to repel boarders.

Rules of engagement would be dirt simple" Leave the students alone. If someone shows up at the door and starts shooting ... shoot back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
I'd add that Lt Col(LTC) David Grossman's On Killing(2009 format) is a great read. He researched the topic & offers good insight.
Yes, he does offer good insights. If you have read his book, why are you opposed to anything that might succeed in adding a layer or two of security? "Layering" is one of his key strategems.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:29 PM   #86
ClydeFrog
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Common sense, good judgement.....

My response is to sit down & talk to a sworn LE officer or school official about SROs & the related issues.
They can explain the ins & outs of a school security program in detail.
"use of force" incidents in US schools & school property are common. SROs & school guards must deal with fights, bully events, vehicle accidents, drugs, etc.
There's more to it then just physical security or protective services.
In a ideal situation, a school district or county govt could hire armed/sworn personnel to just "guard" the children(students) & staff but in reality it's far more complex.
I also agree with a layered security system but armed officers or deputies are only a part of it. There are trained, qualified security professionals who do surveys & school security programs. ASIS & a few state AGs office offer courses for skill training.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:53 PM   #87
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I teach at a high school in an eastern suburb of that Dallas area and we have about 2,800 students two SROs on campus at all times. It's the same officers every day and most of the students know these guys and have some sort of interaction/relationship with them, even if it's just in passing. I'm very confident in their ability to neutralize a threat if one presented itself. Even still, we have a fairly large campus and I would like to be able to carry at work just in case.

Also, I take offense to the notion that career educators are somehow not capable or qualified enough to protect our students with firearms. I'm a career educator and I feel very confident in my own ability as well as that of some of my colleagues to get the job done or at least slow an attacker down in a bad situation. There is nothing I take more seriously about my chosen career than my duty to keep my students safe. That is priority number one for me. Should every teacher be armed? Absolutely not. I do wish that teachers with CHLs could carry at school. Many of my friends that are career educators have taken the Texas CHL class since the tragedy in Connecticut and I think it's great. Being a career educator does not automatically make someone a weak, indecisive imbecile. I've been shooting since I was about 5 or 6 with my father (USMC) and my grandfather (USAF) and they taught me way, way more about shooting and firearm safety than many of the formal firearms classes I have taken. I would love to be able to use all of the tools and training that have been made available to me to keep my students safe.
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Old January 9, 2013, 12:53 AM   #88
ClydeFrog
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When the balloon goes up...

I don't really get how a few of these TFL topic posts get so heated.
The Sandy Hook event(s) really stir up a lot of emotion but; emotions cloud judgement.
New gun laws or school security plans should be well thought out & practical.
I also don't recall anyone insulting any teachers or faculty staff from having concealed guns or complaining about a educator's skill training.

I could honestly care less if a teacher, cop, janitor, AV tech, or rodeo clown with a CC license or open carry sidearm/patrol rifle ended a spree shooter in a school. The safety & welfare of a school system's students & staff should be the main concern.
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Old January 9, 2013, 02:10 AM   #89
lordhedgwich
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when i was in high school we had several police officers in it at all times
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