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Old December 29, 2012, 08:40 PM   #1
Austin22793
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Concerned about some extra copper on the rifling near the crown

Like the title says I'm slightly concerned about some extra copper i see on the crown or i should say the Rifling near the crown. I'm new to firearms and I'm not sure if this is such a good thing. I take great care when i clean my gun, I always run patches through till they are either white or grey. I asked one of my friends what could be causing this build up near the crown. He suggested worst case scenario that the barrel has rough rifling from the factory and to take it back and complain to the store i bought it from (Bass). Since I am new to the rifle world maybe someone could point me in the right direction of how to look at the barrel and look for possible flaws of any sort. For the record this is a Vanguard in .30-06. Of course i may be overreacting and this is just normal.
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Old December 29, 2012, 08:44 PM   #2
Austin22793
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As a side not it almost looks like the copper is really grinding or i don't want to say cutting but grazing into the rifling.
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Old December 29, 2012, 08:48 PM   #3
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I can also post pics if someone is willing to help
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Old December 29, 2012, 09:37 PM   #4
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Copper fouling is fairly common in a new barrel, until you get enough shots down it to smooth it out. Expect accuracy to increase after the first hundred shots. In the meantime, clean the barrel with a good copper solvent. Put it on the metal with a patch, let the solvent work for 10-15 minutes, then start running patches. Look for a blue-green color. When the patches come out clean, you've removed the copper.
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Old December 30, 2012, 09:07 AM   #5
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Since it is a new rifle, it probably is just a slightly rough bore. Thus, Paw Paw's suggestion is likely the right one.

However, to expand further.....

It is possible (NOT probable) that the muzzle area of the barrel is over sized, due to a manufacturing defect. Since the rifle is new, this would not be due to bad cleaning practice (cleaning from the muzzle end and contacting the rifling with a metal rod). Excess metal fouling is a specific region of a barrel can be indicative of the bullet "skidding" against the rifling. This would tend to happen, if the muzzle portion of the barrel is over the specified diameter....or the rifling in that portion of the barrel is damaged in some way.

The only way to know for sure is to slug the barrel. If the slug, when pushed into the area in question, suddenly moves along with much less resistance, then that portion of the barrel is likely over sized.

Now, having said all of that - let me emphasize - this is NOT probable with your rifle....and it is TOO early to tell. So, DON'T get into a twist over this possibility. It is MUCH more likely that this is a phenomenon related to the newness of the barrel.....and slightly rough rifling, as Paw Paw suggested. So, as he said, clean out the copper fouling, then shoot the rifle to "break in" the barrel. After you have at least 100 rounds through it, or sometimes many more, the tiny imperfections will begin to smooth out....and accuracy should improve. The fouling issue you mentioned will probably go away.

Even if it doesn't, the important issue is how accurate is the barrel. If the barrel is accurate, then there is nothing to fix. No two barrels are ever exactly the same....and some exhibit odd quirks, due to microscopic variances. As long as the barrel is accurate, it is nothing to worry about.
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Old December 30, 2012, 10:18 AM   #6
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If it is not affecting accuracy it is not a problem. All of my centerfire rifles have copper fouling. When accuracy drops, follow paw paw's directions again.

What size groups are you currently getting from the rifle? At what distance?
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Old December 30, 2012, 03:23 PM   #7
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Copper fouling on a new rifle is normal, how many rounds did you fire before cleaning. What are you cleaning with, Hope your using a bore guide & one piece rod. Patch-Out Wipe -Out From MidwayUSA is a great bore cleaner, very little oder. For copper fouling I use JB bore Compound & kroil oil. Run a patch down the bore 3/4" from the end, shine a light in the barrel to see the copper. There is nothing wronge with your rifle,Get in alot or trigger time, enjoy the rifle & don't look for problems when ther aren't any. Try for that 1 hole 5 shot group, and get into reloading. Have fun, Be Safe Chris
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Old December 30, 2012, 06:33 PM   #8
Austin22793
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I'll be honest I haven't been counting the rounds as they go through if I had a guess I'm around 60 round range. When i do go to range i shoot 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool for 10-25 mins depending on how cool it feels. I don't clean in between shots, should I be? Also when I clean my gun i prefer the bore snake, I wet the start of it with Hoppes gun clean and run it through 2 times. I was told that over cleaning can be an issue and that sometimes people go crazy! Unfortunately I don't use a bore guide but i plan on getting one in the near future. I'm not using a one piece rod, I'll be honest I've never seen one even in the store, and whats the big deal over that. I'm getting decent group sizes within one inch of each other, once in a while i get a really bad stray, but i am a new shooter and its my first gun and I'm still getting comfortable with it (30-06 which I heard is a semi big round for a first ever shooter). Despite my hesitation with this gun I went out today and got my first ever deer, although the shot almost hit the hindquarters it got the job done. I plan to go to the range tomorrow to see if this is my fault or because of the adrenalin i may have flicked over. Im so happy
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Old December 30, 2012, 08:57 PM   #9
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If its not a hand lapped barrel chances are you will see this. Shoot too many rounds without cleaning through a hand lapped barrel and you will see it. Just clean it till it comes out. It took me 4 days to get my 257 wby clean. To me, it s clean when Montana extreme sets in the barrel 45 minutes and the patch comes out with absolutely no blue on it. Get a Rod and use a good copper solvent. I recommend Montana Extreme but there are many as good and probably some better, but it works for me.
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Old December 30, 2012, 11:48 PM   #10
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The problem with jointed cleaning rods is that the edge of the joint wears on the bore. Even a one piece aluminium rod is bad for the bore. So use the bore snake for cleaning after shooting sessions. Get a one piece stainless rod and a bore guide. Always clean from the chamber end. Remove the bolt and don't drag dirty patches back through the bore.
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Old December 31, 2012, 01:28 AM   #11
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An online site with information on barrel manufacture had images of certain problems that can pop up unexpectedly with button rifled barrels.
One of these was when the initial boring left microscopic concentric striations the full length of the bore.
When the button is pushed is pushed through the tips of the striations are all pushed over in the same direction.
If turned and chambered so bullet travel is in the same direction as the button pushed through the bore then theres no problem. If chambered from the other end then these turned down striations act like microscopic file teeth and will grind away at the bullet jacket. Copper fouling is then many times worse than it should be, and the surface won't smooth out by simply firing a lot of rounds.

If this is the case with this barrel lead lapping or fire lapping may cure the problem. Lead lapping is prefered.

PS
First source I looked at says the Weatherby Vanguard has a hammer forged barrel, the Mark V has a button rifled barrel.
If your barrel is hammer forged, and you wish to lap the bore, remember that the bore surface of hammer forged barrels normally have a dusty appearance that may not go away if lapped. They warn that one should never try to get a bright shiny look to the bore of a hammer forged barrel, and over cleaning in trying to get a shiney bore can wear the rifling out.

Heres a site with some interesting images.
http://www.austargets.com/boreclean.htm

Note the Savage button rifled bore has very visible striations, apparently this bore is properly oriented, putting the turned down edges towards the muzzle. little or no copper fouling showing.
The Tikka stainless steel hammer forged bore looks very smooth, yet has collected more copper fouling.
This may be due to the alloy used. It was found that when autopistols are made using the same stainless steel alloy for both slide and frame that these were subject to galling. When slightly different alloys were used the galling problems went away.
Could be that the specific alloy used has an afinity for some bullet jacket alloys, and may not have the same fouling problem with bullet jackets of another alloy.

Molycoated bullets might be an option.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; December 31, 2012 at 01:49 AM.
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Old December 31, 2012, 08:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin22793
I'm not using a one piece rod, I'll be honest I've never seen one even in the store, and whats the big deal over that. I'm getting decent group sizes within one inch of each other
I've never seen a one piece rod in the stores either. They take up too much shelf space, which is valuable in a retail box store. Fortunately, the online stores are here to help, and one-piece rods abound. Here's the one that I have. When you buy one online, make sure that the thread pitch and whether it is male or female threads fit the cleaning jags/brushes in your area. I've found that the 8X32 thread is really common in my area.

Here's another example that should be sufficient to your purposes.

Quote:
I'm still getting comfortable with it (30-06 which I heard is a semi big round for a first ever shooter).
I wouldn't start a brand-new shooter with a .30-06, but everyone who joined the Army from 1903-1950 started with the .30-06, so that's not a concern. However, you might decidee later to pick up a .22LR. I shoot that caliber quite a lot and the basics of marksmanship apply to that rifle just like to your -06.

Quote:
Despite my hesitation with this gun I went out today and got my first ever deer
WOOT! Good on ya! That's what it's all about. Congratulations.
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Old December 31, 2012, 09:02 AM   #13
Austin22793
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Quote:
Heres a site with some interesting images.
http://www.austargets.com/boreclean.htm
The first image looks exactly like my barrel so i guess despite my concerns its just a new barrel that needs to be fired more before i can get rid of that, a pretty simple solution. Thanks everyone for the help.
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Old December 31, 2012, 09:18 AM   #14
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Any good gun store should have one piece wrapped in a protective nylon/plastic/vinyl sleeve cleaning rods. Tipton makes good ones. Well worth the money
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Old December 31, 2012, 10:15 AM   #15
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Until accuracy starts suffering then don't jones about the fouling, Bore Tech Eliminator will remove it. And as for one-piece cleaning rod I use the Tipton Carbon Fiber rods, they don't pick up and embed trash on them. I have a rifle or two that foul with copper but they shoot extremely well and until they don't, then I'm not worried about it.
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Old December 31, 2012, 10:16 AM   #16
reynolds357
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I use one piece rods exclusively. Well worth the money. I like they will stand up to driving tin oxide impregnated patches down the barrel.
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Old December 31, 2012, 03:01 PM   #17
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60 rounds at the range is nice gange time, using a bore snake & letting the barrel cool is great . My range time is about 25 rounds in two hours. I run some solvent patches through the bore for the trip home & give it a good cleaning at home. I never leave the bore fouled. Some may clean after 200 rounds or when accuracy dropes off, but I'm old school. Get a bore guide & be careful not to ding the crown on the back stroke. Most barrels are screwed up from poor cleaning habbits. Don't forget to clean the bolt face & lube the bolt camming area. Bolt guns are easy to maintain. Triggers on hunting rifles are 3.5 and higher so 1" groupe at 100 yards is good. Enjoy the rifle
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Old December 31, 2012, 07:10 PM   #18
Austin22793
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If I ever use a brush I don't like going against the "grain" of the rifling. it goes against everything in me. Next time I go to the range I'll fire a 3 practice shots/foiling shots let it cool then start on my groupings. I'm still trying to find the right round for for my gun so I'm still experimenting with alot of different round types and brands, so far in my opinion the Remington core-lokt 165 grain and the Hornady SST 165 grain are decent in my rifle. I'm considering downsizing to the 150 because lets face it deer or really anything (except for hogzilla hogs) is going to require 165 grain in Florida, especially in a 30-06 caliber. Another thought, is the premium Remington ammo really make a difference in accuracy for the money?
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Old December 31, 2012, 07:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
I'm considering downsizing to the 150 because lets face it deer or really anything (except for hogzilla hogs) is going to require 165 grain in Florida
Now after researching a little bit more apparently the 165 is favorably more accurate in my caliber
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Old January 2, 2013, 06:01 PM   #20
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This is my day at the range today, with 165 grain hornandy sst at 50 yards, I use a bi-pod but that's it. I'm also a new shooter so it may also contribute to the not so incredible grouping. But im fairly happy with it. Thoughts would be nice
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Old January 3, 2013, 03:44 PM   #21
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At the bench , get your self a bunny eared rear bag
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Old January 5, 2013, 09:10 AM   #22
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Regarding copper wash at the muzzle, either on the lands or in the grooves, that happens 'cause the bullet's jacket touches that area when they go out the barrel. It's common with most factory rifles. It builds up from any bore surface that's rough enough to scrape jacket material off bullets, but usually is not a problem

If there's no copper wash seen at the muzzle, it's due to at least one of two reasons. First, the bore's been intentionally lapped smooth and dimensionally uniform to .0001" or less by its maker so no bullet jacket material gets rubbed off; typical of best quality match barrels. Second, the muzzle area's bore and groove diameters have been accidently lapped to bigger numbers if there is copper wash visible back a ways in the barrel from cleaning with a rod without a bore guide. Rough steel rods and all aluminum or brass cleaning rods especially.

Having worn out 4 Garand barrels made at Springfield Armory in MA, they all started out with a bit of copper wash in the grooves and on the lands at the muzzle when new. After a thousand rounds and frequent cleaning with a solid, one-piece military steel cleaning rod polished very smooth, those surfaces were worn down (diameters enlarged) a bit so no more copper wash was seen the last 1/8th inch of the barrel. I never used a bore guide on the muzzle to protect the rifling. The worn area increased about 1/8 inch or more for every thousand rounds and at 5000 rounds, there was no copper wash for the last 5/8 to 3/4 inch or more. Others on military rifle teams report the same findings. It's normal and does not seem to effect accuracy.
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