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Old January 1, 2013, 08:43 PM   #1
Sabre9mm
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Slugs/other for pure power

I have a new Mossberg 500 Special Purpose, the one with the teeth on the end.

I installed the phoenix kicklite six position recoil reducing stock. (by installed I mean turned one bolt)

(pic attached)

Question on slugs or other rounds, what is the most aggressive hard hitting thing you can shoot from it legally as a civilian.

I have looked online at the videos of the dduplecks rounds, they look impressive and the videos are as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIuPs70CO3U
http://ddupleks.com/index.php/en/1276-cal.html

But so are the Remington slugger rounds actually they appear to hit the hardest of anything I have seen some out of a 12g EVER, that is one sick hit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oDG2i6rwjU

I know there are some specialty steel penetrators like Paraklese makes, they are marked civilian.
http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com...=12ga234APDS25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVcfFQs1M0c


Here is the deal, I know it is all relative to target, so I get the lead/expansion and steel/penetration aspects. But I want to know opinions of those that will engage the argument of what is the most powerful thing you can shoot from this weapon.

Say someone is wearing body armor, perhaps behind a brick wal, blow a hole through it, or rearrange the internal organs from shear impact, or both, I think you get the point...

I keep 000 and 00 for HD or most scenarios where the 12g would be handy, however it is the largest bore weapon I own, and I know it can produce some utterly devastating terminal ballistics.

The new range I just joined has some remote ranges where they let you shoot just about anything and I would like to see just what the upper end of 12g destruction can be. So I would like to pick up a few rounds of different types and see for my own eyes what I might like to keep a few more boxes of in my ammunition store.

Anyone have any opinions or products to suggest sampling?
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Old January 1, 2013, 09:34 PM   #2
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Congrats on your shotgun, but it's still a shotgun, with all the limitations that come with it. It's still a devastating short range weapon, but ... well... look at the numbers.

The Remington Slugger ammo throws a 1 oz (437 grain) slug at something better than 1600 fps, for a little over 2900 ft-lbs at the muzzle. At 100 yards, that same 1 oz slug is down to a little over 1000 fps, with energy at about 1060 ft lbs. These figures come from an online muzzle energy calculator.

Now, let's look at the common, standard .308Win. It shoots a 150 grain bullet at a little over 2800 fps, for 2649 ft-lbs. At 100 yards, it's still carrying over 2500 fps for 2137 ft-lbs.

Now, that's not to say that there is anything wrong with a 1 oz slug traveling 1600 fps. It's very effective, and plenty of folks use them every year to collect their venison. Police and military use slugs to good effect. A shotgun can be certainly used against soft targets within it's effective range. Remington Sluggers are good ammunition, and it is generally readily available. It'll certainly blow a hole in anything meaty, and it should penetrate soft targets (such as car doors) well. However, out past 100 yards, the slug loses energy quickly.

Still, it's a lot of fun to shoot slugs and buckshot through a shotgun. Enjoy yours, learn it, have fun. That's what this hobby is all about.
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:18 PM   #3
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PawPaw summed things up fairly well on enjoying your new shotgun.

Quote:
I have a new Mossberg 500 Special Purpose, the one with the teeth on the end.
Noticed that was the same thing you posted on your other thread
Quote:
(the one with the teeth on the end).
That is a door breaching attachment which most civilians find no use for in a HD shotgun and usually end up removing if possible. Just an extra doo-dad that adds unnecessary weight.

To each their own but you'll most likely find a few more things to remove as well once the newness wears off and you want the best handling HD shotgun.

There was a very wise and respected 'shotgun' guru that when asked by new shotgun owners here on this forum what they could add to their shotgun for HD...."Wear marks" was his answer.



Have fun with your new shotgun. Put as many rounds downrange as you can. Learn its capabilities running different drills. And if possible, find and take a shotgun HD/SD course. You'll get more for your money then buying add ons which more than likely, you will later remove.

As for hard hitting,penetrating slugs...try some Brenneke KO's.
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Say someone is wearing body armor, perhaps behind a brick wal, blow a hole through it, or rearrange the internal organs from shear impact, or both, I think you get the point...
Sounds like you need a RPG.

Seriously, as PawPaw said above it's still just a shotgun and will work as well as any other with the known performers. I'd stick with a good 00 buck load and be done with it.
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:53 PM   #5
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I like the brenekke slugs. The harder hitting ones are the green lightning short field magnums, the black magic 3" slugs and the newer but obscure "maximum barrier penetration" slug. Among other variants. Check their website. I also found it a joy shooting Remington 12 pellet magnum buck.
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Old January 1, 2013, 11:20 PM   #6
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Yeah, I am not expecting to make it into a sniper rifle, I have an AR15 if I have to deliver any energy far downrange.

I wanted something that would knock hella holes in something and make a mess out of whatever it hits within short distances.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produc...acturers_id/37

Seems to be the current winner, shooting through engines sounds fun, I may drag a block out to the range just to test that theory.
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Old January 1, 2013, 11:26 PM   #7
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@shortwave, that was for mental imaging, I agree I do not see knocking any door hinges off, If I thought something was on the other side of the door, I can think of a few other was to get it open quickly.

Removing it would require a hacksaw I do believe, for me I have no plans of marching through a jungle or post apocalyptic world toting it all day, so the extra weight will just be some *cool* look.

Only other accessories other than the stock, which was more for my shoulder than the gun and to teach my boys to shoot it comfortably, is I have a top rail for a flashlight and a sling coming that holds another 15 rounds.
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:09 AM   #8
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All sounds good.

Looks cool.

Again, enjoy.
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
I agree I do not see knocking any door hinges off, If I thought something was on the other side of the door, I can think of a few other was to get it open quickly.
Shotguns are very good for opening doors without any special attachments.

That said, If I thought someone with ill intentions was on the other side of a door I'd leave him there and take another exit if I could.
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Old January 2, 2013, 01:22 AM   #10
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
That said, If I thought someone with ill intentions was on the other side of a door I'd leave him there and take another exit if I could.
Best answer, right there.

As far as power, simply go to the 3" 1 1/2 ounce slug. You're approaching the power level of a .458 Win Mag. What more do you need?
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Old January 2, 2013, 08:15 AM   #12
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I'm not a fan of shotguns for anything but bird and clay pigeon shooting.

In LE I had a Remington 870, 18 in cylinder bore "riot" gun I carried in the car, but seldom used it. Seemed it was always in the way.

Part of my LE Bomb Squad duties was making breaching charges for our SWAT (we called them SRT) guys. Breaching charges for cutting openings in walls and opening doors.

Slugs are very poor for taking off hinges. If not hit dead on, they'll often glance off the henge. Also they over penetrated. You don't know what's inside the room until you get in. You don't want a slug flying around inside.

I used a fine sawdust mixed with wax to cast slugs for breaching. They'd take off the hinges but totally come apart where if anything penetrated, it was only dust from the slug.

I do use slugs and buckshot now, but only when required in Three Gun Matches. Nothing fancy. I use the Lee 1 oz slug. I can keep them in the head area of the IDPA type targets at 30 yards out of my smooth bore 18 in 870, so I can do in pepper poppers at the ranges fired in such matches.

The same with buck shot. Nothing fancy, I use a Lee round ball mold, .319 in diameter that cast 48 gr. balls. I stick 9 of the little suckers in my AA Hulls and I have my buck shot for 3 gun shooting. I can keep all 9 pellets on the IDPA targets at 25 yards.

But, past that, or past the distance I can shoot slugs, I'm better with the pistol/revolver. Or it too far for the handguns, I'll just pick up a rifle.

I understand that some places require the use of shotguns for hunting. It that case I'd probably work up some rifled slugs or get a rifled barrel for my shotgun.

As to penetration, some talked about busting through light armor (car doors, engine blocks etc)...........slugs are too soft and big. In WWI when those light armored tanks first started showing up, GIs found they could penetrate the armor by pulling the 30 cal bullets, and re-inserting them in the case backwards, they out penetrated even the armor piercing rounds.

Shot guns are fun to play with, but I don't think I would want to stake my life on one.
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Old January 2, 2013, 09:54 AM   #13
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A problem with heavy slugs is follow-up shots. I use Brenneke 3-inch Black Magic Magnum slugs and second and third shots are fairly slow because of recoil. The slug is 1-3/8 ounce load (600 grains) with a muzzle velocity of 1500 FPS - it's a hard recoil round even in a gas operated, soft recoiling, semi-auto shotgun. Because of the hard recoil on the 3-inch round, most bear hunters, guides, etc. use the Black Magic 2-3/4 inch slug. I use the 3-inch slug because I live in the western US and the larger round gives nearly the same velocity as the 2-3/4 inch slug with more energy at 100 yards.

If you want slugs for home defense, you might want to look at the Brenneke Home Defense slug. It trades off sheer power for controllability and follow-up shots. You may also want to try the Brenneke Special Forces Short Magnum slug - although the manufacturer warns of over penetration as has been previously described.

Last edited by buckhorn_cortez; January 2, 2013 at 10:01 AM.
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Old January 2, 2013, 11:45 AM   #14
BigD_in_FL
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Quote:
Say someone is wearing body armor, perhaps behind a brick wal, blow a hole through it, or rearrange the internal organs from shear impact, or both, I think you get the point...
Those would fall under the 50BMG round scenarios.....

Personally, I like my shoulder too much to subject it to 458 mag level recoil.....
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:00 PM   #15
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I agree with the whole bad guy inside means go elsewhere, kind of like my AR scope, only goes to 400yd, zeroed at 100.

I figure if they are further than 400 it is something I would rather get away from than shoot at.

Really I just wanted to get the feel of blowing big holes in something, we tore some steel plate and other things up at the range, which of course always leads one to say bigger! until the law gets called...

I think I have enough to go on for the fun aspects, as for a permanently stocked slug, I think for price and demonstration the Rem Slugger is going to win my *rounds to keep* award, the others will be my ooo and ahh at the range toys.

Side note @ kraigwy, curious, more wax than sawdust or other way. As well did you press or mold them? I have already figured a bench vise, piece of steel pipe, and a couple of plugs I should be able to soak the sawdust and then press form a fairly solid little load.

Sound abut right?
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:08 PM   #16
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If you're shooting a soft target its damn hard to one up the carnage of a soft lead foster slug..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oDG2i6rwjU
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:11 PM   #17
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I believe AmmutionToGo has some copper frangible "Breaching Rounds" that are similar in construction and design as the sawdust/wax stuff. If you wanted to play with those.
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:12 PM   #18
Sabre9mm
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Oh, and though I could test, has anyone ever heard of a magnesium slug from a shotgun?

Bar stock is relatively cheap, metal is soft so would mill easily.
Round nose cup with a heavier front end I would assume would fly true from a smooth bore as well.

Light and hard so it would have to travel fast given the same powder charge, and I would assume it would ignite on contact with hard targets like steel.

since I have seen youtubers shoot anything possible out of a 12g from needles to batteries to rocks (And lots of things I would never even consider like exacto blades and nails, I assume there would be a minimal risk in trying.

It may just not go fast enough to do anything other than be a light projectile, thoughts?
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:15 PM   #19
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@RedBow, yeah, I posted the same video up higher, I have to admit if anything I shot with that lived through a solid hit I will just say it won. That is awesome power in meat and will be my "stock up on" choice.

Looking for the kinds of loads that have no practical purpose other than to say, "yes, yes I can blow a hole in that..."
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:33 PM   #20
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For the curious, this seems to do the trick quite nicely as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=TA6qbkKPH6Q
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:43 PM   #21
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Half of those shots were only through the valve cover and unless it broke an overhead camshaft or the timming chain (which it looks like it did but only actually broke on side) it would still be driveable.

The only hit I saw that went though the block and hit the crank(most blocks are pretty soft cast iron actually) looked like it left the crank in tact besides a good dent.

Under no means would that car be "driveable" but i bet it would get you a few hundred years to relative saftey. Also remember all the body work and other components you need to penetrate before you even get to the block itself.
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:06 PM   #22
Sabre9mm
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Yeah, someone is coming at me with a car, I am getting out of the way of the car, not facing it and firing, but the rounds obviously hold some mass to not just splatter. I said I would like to be able to blow a hole in an engine block, not that I would ever want or need to

Would love to see the same shot with other slugs.

Hmmm, maybe this evening another round of youtube surfing...
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Old January 4, 2013, 12:49 PM   #23
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Brenneke Magnum Crush. Almost 4000 ft lbs at the muzzle.
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Old January 4, 2013, 02:14 PM   #24
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If it fits in a shotgun shell, these guys have fired it from a shotgun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRC-qS1CVw
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Old January 4, 2013, 03:53 PM   #25
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The most devestating slug is the Dixie Slugs -
The Dixie IXL-DGS is .730" and weighs 870 grs.
1200'/" from 20" 12 gauge 3
The Brenneke Magunum Crush would be a second choice but the Dixie is hard cast and it is for sure the top dog. You must have a
.730" barrel as it will not swage down like a Brenneke through a choke.

Last edited by jmortimer; January 5, 2013 at 12:28 AM.
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