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Old December 31, 2012, 08:04 PM   #26
BigD_in_FL
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Buckshot and slugs will penetrate walls better than .223, so be judicious in that endeavor. It is not always the best choice for HD depending on layout, neighbors, etc.....
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Old January 1, 2013, 07:18 PM   #27
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Sometimes I forget and post based on my experiences. My mistake.

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Old January 1, 2013, 07:27 PM   #28
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Seriously. The human heart does not sit under 12" of tissue. A center mass shot in to the heart with just about any load is a thug buster. On the other hand, an angled shot through a thick coat, the lower lats up through the ribs, and the heart might be more than 12" deep.

I think 12" is a generalization. Heck, I know a psycho relative-in-law that killed a deer with birdshot at 20 yards... 7 shots in fact. Yeah, that guy scares me.
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Old January 1, 2013, 07:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
The human heart does not sit under 12" of tissue.
Quote:
I think 12" is a generalization.
12" of ballistic gel is the accepted standard.

The human chest is considerably tougher than gel - ribs, cartilage, connective tissue, etc. .... 12" of gel is considered adequate penetration.
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Old January 1, 2013, 08:39 PM   #30
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From my memory I believe the 12 inch minimum was after the horrible Miami FBI killings. Before that incident I believe 6-8 inches was acceptable. The 12 inch standard was for angle shots going through arms and chest cavities. I recently patterned my 12 gauge 2 3/4 inch 00 buck from an 18 inch barrel cylinder bore and the results were terrible. I would not rely on a 25 yard shot with this setup, too much spread. I do still use this setup for home defense as my longest shot would be half of that and well within the pattern range. I'm going to be using a 12 gauge for coyote hunting later this month and I plan on trying different chokes and loads, (I was always under the impression that cylinder bore was best for buckshot, but my testing does not agree!) My brother killed a large doe at 60 yards using 00 buck and a full choke Rem 870. There were only three pellets in the vitals but it did the trick.
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Old January 1, 2013, 09:08 PM   #31
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Penetration with bird shot pellets and buckshot pellets is a function of the weight of the individual pellets, not the weight of all of the pellets in the load. If this was not true, then a one ounce load of No. 8 shot and a one ounce slug would have identical penetration out of the same shotgun with the same muzzle velocity. Of course we all know that no shotgun pellet, regardless of size, will penetrate as much as a slug.
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Old January 1, 2013, 09:51 PM   #32
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I talked to a Viet Nam vet at the range a while back. He told me they used #4 or #6 shot for breeching and it was quite effective for anything inside 50 feet as well. Said you really needed buckshot after 50 feet or so but nothing kept it from working closer.

I keep my house shotgun loaded with 3" 15 pellet 00 buck now, but I wouldn't be afraid to trust #4 buck for inside the room distances. I've trusted it before but thankfully never had to try it.
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Old January 1, 2013, 10:19 PM   #33
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Since I am limited, currently, to 20 gauge guns, I am stuck with #3 Buck as thwe commonly available maximum pellet size... I feel confident that it will do the job at inside the home distance but don't expect one round to be the thug stopper i need so I am ready and practiced in fast assessment and and followup shot/s...

I also have a boot full of slugs if needed... My Ol' Stevens double gun has 2 slugs and my Mossberg 500 holds a full payload of the buck...

Brent
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:36 AM   #34
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I think the biggest myth/misconception I see with buck is that "x" oz or grains of shot is the same as that in a slug or "#4 buck is still pretty much a slug at HD range"... like lefteye touched on.

Went round and round with a co-worker/shooting buddy on that one. Best explanation I could come up with was "Would you rather have me huck a solid 1 pound rock at you or 1 pound of pea gravel?" It clicked after that.

I keep 2 3/4 00 buck in both my 12's at home, with one 3 1/2" shell in my 870 stuffed in first so it'd be the last shell I fire, I figure if I run through all the shorter ones I probably need that super mag load to settle things. Follow up shot is slow at best after a 16 pellet shell for me so it's best to leave that one for last.

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Old January 2, 2013, 10:43 AM   #35
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"The human heart does not sit under 12" of tissue."

IF, and I mean IF, every shooting involved your target standing still, facing you, arms at sides, then 12 inches of penetration would be overkill.

But, oddly enough, humans tend to move around. In a firefight situation, they tend to move around a LOT, which includes ducking, turning side to side, leaning over, putting their arms up, etc...

When you start adding in all of the possible angles and the such, you quickly get to, and can even surpass, 12".
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Old January 2, 2013, 12:53 PM   #36
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#4 Remington Buck Test

#4: 13''-15'' of penetration

#1 FC Buck Test

#1: 17''-18''' penetration

Quote:
would #4 be an effective combat load beyond the 25 yard mark?
The big factor would be patterning at that distance. I'd take either the #1 or 00 FC load at that distance due to the tight patterns they hold. The #1 I tested above holds about a 2'' group at 15m with no choke for what it's worth.
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Old January 2, 2013, 01:58 PM   #37
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I keep hearing people concerned about "over penetration". Use proper tactics and this mitigates the risk. The other risk is the stray pellet, Shotgun pellets have a way of acting unpredictably. A Shotgun lost favor with me as a general purpose gun years ago. Today, for me its only use is defending a position and I generally want slugs, but 00 buck will do if they are close enough.
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:17 PM   #38
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Any of you HD guys ever try out flechette?
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:53 PM   #39
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plouffedaddy. Great test thank you for the info. Both worked well but I'm leaning toward the #4 buck for HD, seemed to work really well and stay in the gel. Thanks again.
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Old January 2, 2013, 02:54 PM   #40
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Those are a novelty round without the knock down of bird shot. They may incite fear if used against a group though.
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Old January 2, 2013, 03:52 PM   #41
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Quote:
Those are a novelty round without the knock down of bird shot. They may incite fear if used against a group though.
What are "Those"? Do you mean flechette loadings or Number 4 Buckshot?
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Old January 3, 2013, 07:13 AM   #42
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Flechette loads look good, but in practice they stink.

The US experimented with them in Vietnam, where it was thought that they would do a better job of penetrating jungle foliage.

In practice it was found that they didn't do all that great a job of penetrating brush, they had extremely limited range given the light weight nature of the individual flechettes, and they had very poor wounding capacity.

Users clamored for their traditional buckshot loads to be reissued, and the flechettes were withdrawn from service as a failure.
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:04 AM   #43
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Quote:
I talked to a Viet Nam vet at the range a while back. He told me they used #4 or #6 shot for breeching
Hmmmm, I would think there would be a difference in "breaching" the walls of grass hooches in Vietnam compared to the steel core or heavy wood doors we have in this country.

Want a real test, go to the junk or scrap yard, find an old door matching your doors and shoot them.

Set them out at what ever distance you plan on shooting and shoot it with your buck shot, slugs, and pistol/revolver ammo.

Take you shot gun and shoot at a B27 or similar target at, 25 yards or what ever range you plan on shooting and see if you can keep all your pellets on target, same with your slugs and pistol/revolver rounds.

If nothing else, you're gonna have fun playing with different rounds at different targets seeing what they do.

I do that, (playing) but like I said, I don't use shotguns for SD, but I do shoot them (slugs, buckshot, and bird shot) in three gun. I load then so as they pattern (all pellets hit the target) at what ever range the match calls for.

What I did find is buckshot patterns better if not pushed too hard, same with slugs (more accurate) and modest velocities out of my smooth bore 18 inch 870 barrel. Regardless how hard they hit, buck shot pellets are useless if the spread prevents them from hitting the targets.

To give you an example, my slugs, If I push them at 15 - 1600 fps I hit my 8 inch popper target about 20% of the time at 50 yards. If I cut the velocity to about 1200 fps, I can hit it 80% of the time.

My homemade buckshot loads also pattern better at slower velocities.

We'll never know what our loads in our guns do via the Internet, we have to go out and test them in the same conditions we plan on shooting them.

I bet when all is said and done, If you do some honest testing on your own, you'll go back to your handguns for SD.
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:11 AM   #44
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Quote:
What are "Those"? Do you mean flechette loadings or Number 4 Buckshot?
Yes the Flechette rounds... I was posting at work on my phone and my fat finger tips were doing a poor job of tapping out the letters compared to the "swipe" style method which had never heard that word before...

Considering, previously, I stated I use #3 buck as my HD load in 20 gauge guns, I didn't think anyone would think I was claiming the #4 to be a novelty round And didn't notice that a post got in while I struggled to try to type that 'ette word My break was ending and I had to get back in to work... Sorry to confuse...

Brent
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Old January 3, 2013, 10:18 AM   #45
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Nanuk wrote:
Quote:
Avoid reduced recoil loads for defense, they are also reduced power.
This is specifically why I use them for "inside the home" self defense. Reduced recoil loads maintain more than enough power and flight control characteristics at typical residential room/indoor distances. Reduced recoil loads are also far less punishing on the shooter and, as a result, facilitate distinctly faster "resetting" times for follow up shots than full-power loads. I have tested shot time difference between reduced recoil and full-power loads and shot count on target at various distances on myself as well as my wife. I am very confident using reduced recoil loads for home and self defense.
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Old January 3, 2013, 12:29 PM   #46
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^ YES
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Old January 3, 2013, 03:38 PM   #47
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THOUSANDS of deer have been killed in the Southern US with buckshot. Ive seen them killed with everything from #4 buck to 000. Rule of thumb was to use the biggest pellet that your gun would pattern in a paper plate at 30-40 yds. That happened to be Winchester Super X #1 buck out of my Remington 1100 and Beretta 390 shotguns. In my guns a modified choke worked best. From the late 70's until present, that combo has accounted for dozens of dead whitetails. If possible I tried to shoot them in the head and neck, but shots to the vitals were equally lethal. Some pellets passed completely through and some didnt.
Long story shortened, go buy a few boxes of buckshot, see what patterns best out of your gun then have faith that reguardless of shot size, it will take the fight out of any would be home invader.
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Old January 4, 2013, 02:28 AM   #48
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#4/00B

In the front of my career, the outfit issued #4B, 27 pellet load. They finally had an agency shooting or two and the results were pretty dismal, due to range and clothing, the #4B pellets did not penetrate well at all. I also listened to a very sober lecture from an agent (not sure of agency) who shot a perp twice w/ #4B on the border and got drilled by .30 carbine himself. He went down (obviously survived) and the perp went back across the border to escape w/ unknown results.

Those episodes spawned a number of unoffical field tests against car doors, winter coats, you name it by staff, resulting in discussion, and to my knoweldege the general abandonment of #4B by Fed agencies, at least the land management outfits. OOB or slugs is now approved ammo for duty shotguns and has been since the late '80's.
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Old January 4, 2013, 02:39 AM   #49
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winchester and/or federal 3", 15 pellet, 00 buck is what i use for self-defense.

I have grown to accept and appreciate 2 3/4" 00 buck, but I still use the 3" mentioned above for self-defense(as well as almost 100% of the time when the ammo is my choice). The way I see it, the intruder asked for the full kittenkaboodle if it ever comes to that(hopefully & probably not).

my home, my family, my choice....I have taken into effect issues that can arise with shotgun blasts and family members(the best anyone can anyways)
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Old January 4, 2013, 09:58 AM   #50
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I use 00 9 pellet with a side saddle with slugs in it. Versatility is one of the best things about a shotgun. Leave bird shot for the birds, why waste time in thinking it "should" work okay.


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