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Old December 29, 2012, 12:27 PM   #51
Alabama Shooter
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I know a Special Forces officer (he really is one, not just pretending to be one) who gave me the worst possible advice I have ever heard.

He said when he saw someone driving poorly that you should confront them directly by getting out of your vehicle and going and talking to them about what they were doing wrong (speeding, ran a stop light, talking on cell phone etc) when they stopped. (I actually saw him do this on two occasions) He said we should not allow people to do this because they put everyone at risk. He was very calm and a matter of fact when he did this.

I have never driven with him since then. Trying to start an encounter with some random stranger by criticizing their driving sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

It occurred to me later that maybe he had one too many trips to Afghanistan and was trying to initiate some kind of hostile/ road rage encounter.

He is one heck of shot and pretty smart with guns though.
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Old December 29, 2012, 01:34 PM   #52
Glenn Dee
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Being a handgun, or long gun expert is not a qualification for being a police officer. Every police officer carries at least one handgun, and possibly a rifle and / or a shotgun. Their department insures that each officer is qualified with the use of these weapons, and the legal details of when each weapon may be used. This does not make any of them an expert. I dont know why anyone would assume that any of them is an expert.

Some policemen are firearms enthusiasts. Most are not. These inthusiasts arent experts any more than those who are not. The police recieve more better training than most people. (I know I'm going to get flamed for this). Police training tends ro be reality based not worst case scenario based.
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Old December 30, 2012, 10:11 AM   #53
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"The police receive more better training than most people." That statement absolutely proves that you haven't spent much time on a range with any real cops. Their training is quick, short and as cheap as it can be made and there is almost no safety taught at all (or they won't listen). I know because I was a instructor. Every single time I had a student unintentionally discharge a gun and come within inches of shooting me or someone else it was a "trained" police officer. Every time. Anytime an LEO shows up at the range now I leave. Their marksmanship is pitiful and their gun handling skills are terrible. It is not really their fault, their training is simply very poor and they all seem to believe that they are "experts" just because they are cops. (or former military)

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Old December 30, 2012, 12:18 PM   #54
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Every single time I had a student unintentionally discharge a gun and come within inches of shooting me or someone else it was a "trained" police officer. Every time. Anytime an LEO shows up at the range now I leave. Their marksmanship is pitiful and their gun handling skills are terrible. It is not really their fault, their training is simply very poor and they all seem to believe that they are "experts" just because they are cops. (or former military)
You too huh? 2 bullet holes in my shooting bench and a lead streak on the wall of my shooting range and all done by deputies, none of the civilian shooters or military shooters using the range had a gun go off where the bullet didn't go down range where it belonged. That being said my most difficult shooters were the old timers with 20+ years of gun handling behind them but were new to range procedure and discipline.
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Old December 30, 2012, 01:44 PM   #55
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True story...

A few years ago, I took a armed security class with a top instructor & owner/CEO of a well known security/skill training school. He also served on the state's security industry training panel.
At a 2009 meeting of state officials & security officers/supervisors, he told a quick story.
The security trainer told our group about a high ranking state trooper who had to check all the highway patrol offices as part of his duties. The senior trooper told him that EVERY troop office in the state had at least 1 hole in the ceiling, .
True story.
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Old December 30, 2012, 02:15 PM   #56
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Ill be the first to admit I'm no poster child of range safety. I follow the rules and everything but in my particular field we spent a lot of training time doing things that ranged from not safe to downright dangerous and were often told by instructors that the usual rules did not apply to us. So I probably do things that would make life long paper punchers uncomfortable.

That being said I don't consider my range time to be unsafe but I'm not the best one to give advice on that subject. Its something I take seriously since its going to fall on me to teach my nephew about all things firearms.

I keep telling Pahoo he needs to come over to our range and he would probably spend the whole time telling me what I'm doing wrong lol. I take advice from anyone with a grain of salt but I always like to hear others opinions and or constructive criticism.
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Old December 30, 2012, 02:39 PM   #57
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AS's post, SF instructor...

I'm curious to know why AL Shooter would be around a person so reckless & unstable. This SF veteran may have serious mental health problems.

When I took my 1st armed security course in 2002, my class instructor was a SF(US Army special forces) veteran & PSC(private contractor). The guy was a total nutbar. The mgr of the training course even told our class she was going to get rid of him.
Some people can earn skill badges or work in spec ops but they are not good instructors. That includes entry level students.
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Old December 30, 2012, 06:38 PM   #58
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I'm curious to know why AL Shooter would be around a person so reckless & unstable.
I used to work with him.

He was pretty stable. I think he felt he had to put the whole world to right which led to his reckless behavior. I would not put him the nutjob category just a little intense.
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Old December 30, 2012, 08:35 PM   #59
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He has a point. If we don't hold people accountable they will keep doing the same stuff. So I don't agree with the tactics he used but I agree with the sentiment. I have gotten off my motorcycle several times to talk to drivers who were doing things that could have gotten me killed.

We have a huge problem in this world of calling people on their BS. I posted in another thread about being an expert in conflict resolution. You don't have to start a fight to get your point across. You can always walk away if things go bad. If you are not man enough to walk away then you should not be carrying a firearm.
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Old December 31, 2012, 06:00 AM   #60
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drail... Sir

As it happens I have spent quite a bit of time on police ranges. As well a lot of time on civilian ranges. IN MY EXPERIENCE... the safety violations on either were very rare, and continue to be rare. I'm sure that there are some departments out there with some inherent issues... Just as there must be civilian ranges with similar issues.

The Police absoloutly recieve more, and better training than the average shooter. First most shooters dont recieve any training other than perhaps an initial CCW class. Police departments require a minimum of yearly qualification. Much police training is done outside the range during in service training cycles. The police must meet minimum standards, civilians dont.

I'm not at all suggesting that the police are better trained than all shooters... just better trained than the average gun owner. Police training is, and should be different than non police training. Police tend to use raw data of real world incidents to form their training regimin. Civilian organizations tend to use second or third hand information, and imagined incidents for their regimin. There is a well known and well respected (Including my own great respect) , very professional trainer that sometimes comes into these chats. I read an artical he'd written about a rare protracted police vs armed robber shooting. He treated the incident with respect, and honest criticisim. As I said I respect this guy, but he got it all wrong. Not that he did anything wrong... He was responding to incomplete information. I know because I was there.

I'm not saying that civilian trainers are any less qualified, or less professional than police trainers.. in fact I believe that often the opposite is true. I'm not suggesting that civilian training or trainers are of less value than police trainers... thats just not my experience. If there was a way to get every S/D, H/D gun owner to get into an ongoing training program I'd be a very happy camper. I try to get in as much training as I can. A personal friend, and local trainer is a "REAL DEAL" guy... we do civilian training all the time.
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Old December 31, 2012, 06:12 AM   #61
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I am of the mind that any training is better than no training at all. I believe that an individual who sit's down and do some research will come up with training that will make him a better shooter, and better prepared to handle a life and death situation.

If a group did the same thing the results would be the same, but better. As people who have taken the initiative to purchase a firearm as a commitment to self preservation. I'm sure that same person is capable of reading some material, and talking to others... then coming up with a training scenario relivent to their needs. Excluding nut jobs... most people can fend for themselves. Again I'm not suggesting that anyone imagine they could come up with anything near what a professional dedicated trainer would produce... ANY TRAINING IS BETTER THAN NONE AT ALL.
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Old December 31, 2012, 07:16 AM   #62
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drail... Sir

As it happens I have spent quite a bit of time on police ranges. As well a lot of time on civilian ranges. IN MY EXPERIENCE... the safety violations on either were very rare, and continue to be rare. I'm sure that there are some departments out there with some inherent issues... Just as there must be civilian ranges with similar issues.

The Police absoloutly recieve more, and better training than the average shooter....
I agree, especially when police training satisfies POST standards.

And around here, most private citizens I see at public ranges have received virtually no proper training -- and that is reflected in their atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship.
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Old December 31, 2012, 08:42 AM   #63
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Jason; "quiet professional"...

I disagree with part of Jason's remarks, "calling people on their BS" is the fastest way to lose your concealed carry license or gun permit.
When you have a concealed carry license, you've shown to the govt agency that issued it, that you are a mature, rational adult who has no criminal records & can safely carry a concealed firearm in public. If you can't control your temper or get into disputes with strangers quickly, I would not be carrying a loaded gun around.
The US special operations community has a term for it; it's called being a quiet professional.
Author, sworn LE officer & legal expert Massad Ayoob wrote about the same topic in his non fiction book; In the Gravest Extreme.
Ayoob points out that carrying a weapon is a big responsibility & you will be accountable for your statements & actions. The recent Zimmerman/Martin case is a good example. News reports say FBI agents have interviewed several of George Zimmerman's friends, co-workers, etc.

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Old December 31, 2012, 09:53 AM   #64
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I don't think you read my entire post. There is no reason to lose your temper. There is no reason to start a fight. There is plenty of reason to say hey what you did back there is very dangerous and I would appreciate if you were more careful especially around motorcycles as we are extremely vulnerable.

I further said that while I disagreed with the gentlemen in ALshooters post on his tactics. I agreed with his sentiment. While I'm glad you can quote books that you have read. I have lived it. You should never start a fight with anyone regardless of whether you are carrying or not. If it starts to go bad just walk away. It has much to do with knowing people and when you can call them on BS and when you just need to call the police or when you need to defend yourself with force. If you can not tell the difference then you should not be carrying a gun. If you can not control yourself and your temper I agree you should not be carrying a gun. If you can not resolve conflicts with out violence or walking away you should not be carrying a gun. Being polite goes a long ways. Ignoring someone doing something that is going to someday get someone killed is just absurd.
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Old December 31, 2012, 10:04 AM   #65
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Talked to the Sniper teams from a variety of City and County Law Enforcement Departments earlier this year out at the range at Van Meter, Iowa with their rifles, mostly scoped Remington 700's.

I have been Honored to know many Good Men and Women in Law Enforcement and the Military, most of them knew what they were talking about.

I have gotten bad advice mostly from the General Public.
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Old January 14, 2013, 03:11 AM   #66
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I was a bit embarrassed to realize after I got out of the MC that there was so much about firearms I didn't know. I have always had the interest, so I think I was quite good on the weapons we used, but most of them are way to expensive / regulated to be likely to come up in the civilian world. There was this terrible moment where I wanted to shoot an FAL and had a to get someone else to show me where the sights were...
Since then, I have spent most of my time correcting my deficiencies. Still, I think I'm confident enough to know what I know, and what I don't. The problem with the military is that you can become an expert, but on exactly one or two weapons, and little else.

PS, it's really tough to admit that particular dumb ass mistake. Hmmm... Thread topic idea... Worst firearms mistakes. We've all had a few.
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Old January 14, 2013, 03:29 AM   #67
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There are many LEO's who have no interest in guns, yet are proficient in the use of thier duty firearms. Some don't even keep guns at home. Some without the direct interest are also the ones who get into highly stressful shootings and 10X the bad guy with a perfect shoot!

Then there are LEO's that have a great amount of tactical knowledge. Most law enforcement agencies have adopted military tactics and training for thier officers. My depatment has some of the most advanced training anywhere and many of our cops are former special forces members.

Many cops do have good tactical shooting knowledge and a warrior mindset.

The tactical training I do and have learned comes from some great Cops and military folks! SOme of the best training in the world!
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Old January 14, 2013, 06:57 AM   #68
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Couple of things...

I spent quite a bit of time in the military (US Army) and as an additional duty ran 4 arms rooms in different units. I learned what I could then--in my first unit (Infantry, Korea) I got lucky--by volunteering for range detail I got to help shoot up ALL the excess ammunition left over after quals or training. I got to be pretty handy with M16's, M60's, 1911 pistols and good ol' Ma Deuce. I can say with satisfaction that I have melted a few barrels.

Fast forward to when I first broke into law enforcement. Was I salty? Oh, heck yes! I was a serious reloader by then, and I put a lot of rounds down range. Thought I knew it all.

My first academy taught me otherwise, and it started the germ of the idea that practice is OK, but perfect practice is better. I started holding myself to a higher standard, and started practicing to actually HIT what I was supposed to.

I progressed in my law enforcement career, landed the armorer's spot, and continued to learn. Then, I started shooting NRA Conventional Pistol--good old boring Bullseye shooting.

I REALLY became anal retentive about hitting my targets then. I started realizing where I was on the proficiency curve--and I wasn't impressed. I started loading handgun ammunition in big bunches. I would head to the range and shoot 100 rounds practicing for bullseye matches. This was the warm up. I then put the competition stuff away and put on my duty belt. At the range, I started practicing my draw and engaging targets.

Then I was selected to be my Department's precision rifleman--as in, sniper.

I went to my first sniper school kind of cocky. After all, I was a former Infantryman--right? I knew this stuff cold.

After my first day at school, I crawled back to my hotel room, tail firmly tucked between my legs, and camped out under a hot shower. I didn't sit in the corner and whimper while playing with the dog toys--but I came close.

This stuff was HARD!!!

After the school, and returning to my Department, I went through the Colt course for the M16 series of firearms. I learned that there are a TON of teeny tiny parts in that M16; that they seem to have a life of their own, and that they will run off with glee and hide in the carpet at the first opportunity. (Don't ask me how I know. Please....)

So, what have I learned?

1. Most cops are not gun people. In my quest to set maintenance schedules for the Department firearms, I cringe at some of the guns I see. Some are bathed in oil--even the firing pin channels (Glock pistols, which is a big no-no). Some are bone dry, without even the required lubrication. I've pulled some apart and gotten sheepish looks when I clear the pistol, pop the slide assembly off and LINT and DUST fall out. I've seen barrels that were clogged with debris. I've pulled apart AR15 carbines that dropped plates and chunks of carbon fouling when the bolt carrier group was disassembled. I've had officers tell me "I don't trust this gun, because it jams." A few drops of oil inside the bone-dry rifle, and it runs like a Swiss watch.

2. A lot of the command staff look askance and anyone they THINK is a gun enthusiast. I finally got tired of being referred to as "Tackleberry".

One time, when I was doing a qualification shoot, I was on the way to cleaning the course for the sixth time. (My thought was, "Hey, they're giving me a bullseye as big as a dinner plate, starting me at 3 yards, and letting me use both hands? Riiiight.....) I heard one of the officers behind me say "That's all he ever (bleeping) does is shoot!" And he said it with some REAL venom in his voice, too.

No, all cops are not gun guys--neither are soldiers. My favorite yarn is still, "Soviet weapons are designed so that they can shoot OUR ammo, but we can't shoot theirs." (Hm. I want to see someone throw a 7.62x51 NATO into the chamber of an AK. Let me know how that works for you.)

As far as Nicky Santoro's statement--whatever, fella. You may have the opinion that cops have little or no integrity. I know better. I don't get mad when I hear this--because I seem to hear it from quite a few people, who usually have had a run in with the law. I know better, friend. I know that if I get into a pinch and I'm in uniform, if there's a brother or sister officer anywhere near, in uniform or not, I have backup. I know that I hold my badge and my oath inviolate. And I can go home knowing that each day I have acted with compassion and integrity toward my fellow man or woman. And--that's all I need to know.
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Old January 14, 2013, 02:32 PM   #69
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You want bad advice? Go on the internet!
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Old January 14, 2013, 03:09 PM   #70
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Haha True story. I get some good advice online too. Take it all with a grain of salt and do your research.
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Old January 20, 2013, 07:29 PM   #71
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Some are bone dry, without even the required lubrication. I've pulled some apart and gotten sheepish looks when I clear the pistol, pop the slide assembly off and LINT and DUST fall out.
I've heard the same thing from a CHL instructor who was a police department armorer at one time. He said he'd seen police weapons so gunked and dried up they literally wouldn't even operate. The only time they'd been taken from their holsters was for annual qualifying, which in itself didn't amount to a hill of beans.

So yeah, just because somebody's an LEO or veteran doesn't automatically make him a Rambo. Not even close.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:38 PM   #72
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I ran my own business, as a firearms instructor, for over 20 years. Over 500 students per year. Most of my Students were from the private Security Field, one company, armored Car/ATM replenishment and maintenance, had 400 of a staff. Police, and military.

To get the permission to obtain this status (A Instructor had to be qualified to teach, not so hard) some of the new hire in my biggest Company were ex LEO.

Most were not so special, but safe. A couple were superb shots, ex Pistol Team members, etc.

Using simple techniques to teach young Security Staff, amazing results. The majority (Canadians) had never ever handled a Revolver/Glock pistol in their lives.

Never even held one. But you can teach a person to shoot a Revolver, or a Glock 9mm, in two hours, maximum class size, 8.

Four to 6 hours, to obtain really good results, from a holster, and speed loader use, and competent reloads with a Glock 19 or 17.

This is not brain surgery.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:56 PM   #73
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This is not brain surgery.
Actually, I'd suggest that teaching ANYthing, from firearms to knitting to brain surgery, isn't brain surgery. Know the current skill sets of the learners, introduce a measured amount of challenge, allow the student to fill that challenge. The problem, as suggested in this thread, is the "bad advice" factor. Bad advice isn't measured amount of challenge. It's just plain wrong and doesn't promote the allowing of "filling the challenge".

It would seem expectable that in firearms, there is more of a "bad advice macho factor" than in other fields. I doubt that knitting instructors get side tracked with war stories when teaching their classes. But we (the gun guys) certainly do. We tend to get trapped into "Well I can do that so I can teach it" or worse "I had a really tough coach and I turned out ok, so I'll be an even tougher coach".


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Old January 22, 2013, 04:51 AM   #74
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I've certainly heard my fair share of bull come from LEO/military "experts". My favorite is that a Glock will blow up if you use copper jacketed ammo in it. I patiently tried to explain that non jacketed bullets are actually what can be dangerous, to no avail. He remains convinced. Whatever, I tried. Legal advice is another dandy. I've heard lots of idiotic stuff come out of a cops mouth in the legal arena. Once I was told by a LEO that if I shot someone on my front porch to drag them back in the house. You can see why I might be skeptical.

While I certainly cannot speak for every police department in the nation, I do know that the ones in this general vicinity receive very little real world training. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find one in this county who knows how to properly clear a building. Their "training" consists of a yearly qualifications course of 100 rounds. I'd hardly consider that training since my average range session generally consists of two or three times that much shooting.
Quote:
The Police absoloutly recieve more, and better training than the average shooter. First most shooters dont recieve any training other than perhaps an initial CCW class. Police departments require a minimum of yearly qualification. Much police training is done outside the range during in service training cycles. The police must meet minimum standards, civilians dont.
I might agree with that first sentence. But I wouldn't agree that the average trained shooter has had less. And I'm speaking about those that seek out training (not CCW training). Why? Because much of the training we take is more intently focused on using lethal force in a dynamic situation. We aren't training to respond to a call to an armed robbery or a shooting in progress, we're training that we're in the middle of the firefight. No backup, no radio, no body armor, no M4 carbines. It's far different than rolling up in the cruiser and proceeding from there. Soldiers are the same way. The guy who manned a mounted machine gun for an entire tour in the sandbox would be just the ticket if I had an M2 mounted to my pickup and insurgents in the hills, but his skills will be of little use if a firefight breaks out inside the Jr. Food downtown.

It's not that I'm belittling police officers or soldiers and what they do, I have a lot of friends and family who are or were both, and I thank them and all others for their service. That said, I can think of a lot of "civilians" who I would much prefer to be near me inside the kill box, as they say. Or whom I would seek my advise from. My $0.02.
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Old January 22, 2013, 05:32 PM   #75
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Hmm. First post here so greetings. I can't someone I want but maybe that's by design since I'm the newbie. Have been shooting for most of my life and i'm in my 50's now. I'm a retired 30 plus year LEO. I've seen a few insults towards the profession in general with no reason for it. While I agree with some on here that many officers have little interest in guns or shooting beyond what's required I would put most of them up against many I see at public shooting ranges. Clark Brothers outside of Warrenton, Va is one range that comes to mind. I get scared shooting there with some of the morons there shooting and the lack of real oversight. If some of these stunts were pulled at the range their heads would roll. I could never understand why the poor shooting officers would not work extra to improve their range scores but they could never skimp of safety skills.
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