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Old December 26, 2012, 06:11 AM   #51
darkgael
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WCs

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loaded HBWCs either in .44 special or .45 Colt.
I have never seen a HBWC bullet in .429 or .452/.454. Source? Mold # and manufacturer?
Saeco makes a mold for a 200 gr. FBWC for the .44s and a 225 grainer for the .45, that I know. RCBS makes a RNHB mold for the .45s
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Old December 26, 2012, 02:07 PM   #52
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I have never seen a HBWC bullet in .429
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.ph...roducts_id=280
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Old December 26, 2012, 02:37 PM   #53
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Ever since I worked a shooting where a guy got an entire load of 00 buck in the chest and ran cursing for 100 yards until expiring my faith in ANY handgun round has been kinda suspect
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Old December 26, 2012, 04:44 PM   #54
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Thanks

Jib: Thanks for that link to the HBWCs. I ordered a few in .452. I had never seen them before. I wonder whose mold it is?
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Old December 26, 2012, 05:09 PM   #55
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Ever since I worked a shooting where a guy got an entire load of 00 buck in the chest and ran cursing for 100 yards until expiring my faith in ANY handgun round has been kinda suspect
What was the load ( full power or reduced recoil)? What was the distance? I ask because all 00 buck is not created equal. Even 00 loses effect at more that 15-20 yards, remember each projectile counts as its own, so each is a 32 cal lead ball.
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Old December 26, 2012, 05:17 PM   #56
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At low velocity I'd say a lead or jacketed round nosed bullet is best. You need to puncture internals and cause lots of bleeding.

Aim for the heart, neck and face and it should do the job.
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Old December 26, 2012, 11:07 PM   #57
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Nanuk:

cast bullet..... I shot some, dime sized groups at 7 yards (common PD range) out of a 6" python... gruesome effect on target.
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Old December 27, 2012, 01:22 PM   #58
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If you load a swaged lead WC backwards, the skirt separates giving two projectiles tumbling through the air. Poor accuracy and poor terminal effect is what you will get.
Really? Do you have any proof of that? I have loaded and a couple hundred HBWC bullets backwards and shot them into mud, putty and water bottles and never had a single bullet fragment or seperate. They were not very accurate and more likely than not the skirt would mash flat and not expand at all. I would never depend on them for SD load.

In theory if you load a HBWC with too hot of a charge the base could seperate from the solid part of the bullet. Thats with the bullet loaded point first. I have loaded up to 4.5grs of bullseye to see if I could get it to seperate but it never happened.
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:25 PM   #59
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Really? Do you have any proof of that? I have loaded and a couple hundred HBWC bullets backwards and shot them into mud, putty and water bottles and never had a single bullet fragment or seperate. They were not very accurate and more likely than not the skirt would mash flat and not expand at all. I would never depend on them for SD load.

In theory if you load a HBWC with too hot of a charge the base could seperate from the solid part of the bullet. Thats with the bullet loaded point first. I have loaded up to 4.5grs of bullseye to see if I could get it to seperate but it never happened.
Proof? I did it in 1982. the same old story was around even before the internet! So after I got out of the Army my dad and I decided to try it. Loaded up some Speer swaged lead HBWC backwards, looked mean.... At 25 yards for each shot fired there were 2 holes in the target, one was clearly the main part key-holing. Same results at 15 yards.

Thats all the "Proof" I have. It is the same as the "WC is the ultimate secret for SD" . this crap resurrects itself every few years. There are all kinds of gimmick rounds out there, me I want a bullets that goes where I want it to at any reasonable distance and penetrates deep - every-time. And no I am not going to produce a you-tube video, and I don't have any sworn depositions.

You want to load a round that is an urban legend into your gun to protect yourself when rounds with 2 to 3 times the energy have failed to stop attacks, have fun.
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Old December 27, 2012, 02:57 PM   #60
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cast bullet..... I shot some, dime sized groups at 7 yards (common PD range) out of a 6" python... gruesome effect on target.
The same load from you 6" python vs a 2" snubbie is about 200-250 FPS difference. Like night and day at those velocities. I had good results with My Marlin and wadcutters on skunks, but you had to load 1 at a time because the gun did not feed them.
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Old December 27, 2012, 08:09 PM   #61
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Hello KyJim
After you deliver 800 fps of 158 grain hardcast lead payload to the intended target, Penetration Disappointment probably will not be a topic of too much concern.
I think I pretty much said that when I said a wadcutter at 800 fps would be a decent defense load. The OP, however, is talking about 600 FPS and penetration is a concern.
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Old December 27, 2012, 08:12 PM   #62
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, but even at around 600 to 650 fps the wadcutter will blow through more than 12" of 20% ballistic gelatin. See links above for proof.
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:46 AM   #63
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I know what the OP is asking. Still, wadcutters, at any speed, are not suitable Self Defense bullets.

A wadcutter is a cheap bullet. It happens to fly as good as a more expensive hardcast bullet does without the extra expense of a hadcast bullet. The wadcutter was designed for cutting a nice, clean, easy to score, bullet hole in a friendly B27 Target standing still in broad daylight minding its own business.

Wadcutters were not designed for...penetration, not designed for controled exspansion. Wadcutters have never been loaded or recommended for neither hunting nor for Self Defense purposes. Wadcutters were never used by Winchester or Remington or Federal or CCI for Military or LE carry loads.

Some individuals have reloaded birdshot, salt, sand, glass, scrap metal, darts, and blanks, for their 38 Special SD payloads for reasons unknown, including Recoil Avoidance I guess. America, in some States, is still a free country. You don't need my permission, please, load what ever you like. But remember, even Chief Brody knew not to use wadcutters.

Last edited by warningshot; December 28, 2012 at 02:49 AM.
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Old December 28, 2012, 02:15 AM   #64
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Watch-Out for bandit pancakes at 9 O'Clock Low

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wadcutter will blow through more than 12" of 20% ballistic gelatin.
I think a 25acp and or a .32acp will blow thru at least 12'' of 20% ballistic gelatin under the same conditions. (I better fact check that.)

When 12inches of 20% ballistic gelatin develops two legs and gets an early release from the California Penal System for good behavior, I'll take a second look at that YT clip. Keep those YT coming. No one loves YT more than me.

Last edited by warningshot; December 28, 2012 at 02:33 AM.
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Old December 28, 2012, 10:29 AM   #65
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Clearly, you have no idea how effective a meplat can be, and even more so with a maximum meplat. If wadcutters are not "designed" for penetration, how come thet penetrate so well? The Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter out of a J frame will go through two feet of ballistic gelatin at around 850 fps. Yes I know it is not a living bad guy, but it is used to establish baseline effectiveness of bullets in living tissue. Memo to FBI, please stop using ballistic gelatin for establishing minumum/maximum levels of ammunition performance. If you take the time to read the article I linked above, "Wicked Wadcutters," you will see that a wadcutter, even at pedestrian speed, will penetrate real good. I know, you probably don't like article links as well as links to videos of bullets hitting blocks of ballistic gelatin. Tell me what bullet/ammunition you think is better/best for the OP and we can check it out.
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Old December 28, 2012, 01:28 PM   #66
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I am with Warningshot here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7w4M-LNXuQ

Oh you wanted 38 special

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VWDYQCFgic

But wait

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6IzUGxMrfQ

All of these are superior to a 38 wadcutter, which was designed to cut pretty holes in paper, to make scoring the target easier.
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Old December 28, 2012, 02:12 PM   #67
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Early, in the worst shoot-out the FBI ever had, an Agent shot a Creep in the ribcage with a 9mm from a short distance. The bullet, while on the correct target path and with sufficient velocity, deformed and stopped before the bullet traveled thru to the Creep's vitals. Said Creep continued his attack despite soaking-up his new less than lethal gunshot wound to his chest.

The official FBI shooting review concluded that had 9mm been loaded with a bullet capable of decent penetration the Creep most likely would not have had the energy to kill, and injure, multiple Agents, shortly after the intial hit.

Reflecting on the tone from your request for this 25 year old open-source information, I am certain that others, whom may know more about the Dade County Shooting than me, will gladly fill in the details if you so desire.
Here's some details on that shooting, the 9mm bullet (147gr Slivertip, I believe, but would have to look that up) struck the torso from the side, and stopped at the top of the heart. It took out the aorta. IT was a lethal wound. The ME at the time said, "if he had taken that shot at the operating room door, it would be problematical if they could save him" (paraphrase, its been a long time...)

That bullet did not fail. It was a lethal wound. What it did not do was instantly STOP the creep. He lived for a bit more than a minute, and during that time fired over 100 rnds from a mini14, killing and wounding several agents, before finally being stopped by hits from a .357, fired at close by a wounded agent as the creep was trying to drive away.

What failed in that shootout were the tactics, training, and shooting of the agents involved. What they were up against was something outside of their experience and training. The creep was not just a bank robber, he and his partner were stone cold killers, who fired hundreds, possibly thousands of rounds every week for practice! They murdered several people plinking in the swamps, to get their cars, and guns. They did stop those creeps, but at a huge cost.

The FBI, however, decided the official failure was the bullet. And so began the process that lead to adoption of the 10mm (which was just too much), the 10mm Lite load (which met the desired specs, but was still in 10mm guns, where were "too big") and finally the .40 S&W (delivering 10mm Lite performance, in a smaller, more easily managed gun platform).

As to the .38 wadcutter, and particularly the .38WC loaded light, it is not a good choice for self defense. A friend and I loaded and shot a few thousands of them (from a 6" M19) back in the early 80s.

Loaded them backwards, and right side up. HB and BB both. He liked to load them at about 600fps. Nice load, virtually zero recoil, and quite accurate.

Penetration? not so much. And, while its a nice medium for general comparisons, don't put too much faith in ballistic gelatin. Real world target: junk car, mid 60s Galaxie. Range 15yds-ish. My friend, a fine shot, could pick the F O R D letters off the trunk DA, faster than I can type this. The slugs usually went through the trunk lid. Usually.

Target: abandoned refridgerator. .38 HBWC upside down. Vel: ~600fps. Range: ~10yds. Several cylinders fired, maybe half a dozen slugs penetrated the outside of the fridge...most left largish dents in the metal, opened up to the size of a quarter, flattened out well, and were picked up off the ground at the base of the fridge.

These round might get in to the vitals of an attacker, if there was nothing more than a t-shirt in the way, providing they didn't hit a bone. Maybe.

The combination of the flat wadcutter shape, the soft lead, and the low speed means they will NOT penetrate deeply in flesh, and do NOT deliver a large amount of energy (of which the .38 doesn't have much, even in full power loads).

They mush out real purty...that looks impressive, but the performance just isn't up to what I (and most others) consider a reasonable standard for self defense.

Better than bare hands, certainly, but not much better than the pointy stick, except you have a little stand off distance.

A soft lead WC, at the low speed of ~600fps is a fun plinker, and cuts nice clean holes in paper. It also can be stopped/deflected by nearly any hard object. A belt buckle, metal studs/chains on a leather jacket, even just the arm of the bad guy, if that light.38WC has to go through any of those, or something like it, odds are its not going to get where it needs to go to stop an attacker. Not a good choice, in my book.

Now, a hard lead SWC, driven at high speed, is a completely different thing. Lots of penetration there!

The light .38 "poppers" just aren't "stoppers"!

If that's all your girlfriend can manage, its still better than nothing. Her just having a gun (and the confidence to use it, if needed) might be more than enough. Statistically, just presenting the piece ends more fights than shooting does.

However, you can't count on that, either. If the girlfriend can't manage anything but poppers, so be it. But, if she can handle heavier loads, and just doesn't like them, that's different. Let her shoot all the poppers she wants for play, and see that she can do a cylinder of "stoppers" once in a while, "just in case, hun!" If you approach it the right way, both of you might be surprised with the eventual result.
Good Luck!
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Old December 28, 2012, 05:31 PM   #68
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Great replys.

In my posts I was trying to figure out how to explain that you can have a suitable SD "Hardcast" wadcutter. I thought I did. (You know what happens when I start thinking) But if a percentage of my readers miss it, well then maybe I should expect better of my comments next time.

When using industry standard language and the term 'wadcutter' shows up alone doesn't that indicate this load/componet is for recreactional shooting? For some maybe not. Maybe the terms, 'Hardcast', 'Swedged', and 'Semi-wadcutter', need their own definitions or understanding before any talk about bullet purpose.

My information on the Dade County Shoot came from a West Coast Medical Examiner whom was probably still in Medical School in 1986. Since I wasn't there, the only details that I know of come from FBI television. I have never heard a FBI Agent comment on the details.
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Old December 28, 2012, 05:43 PM   #69
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I am not saying that a wadcutter "Cannot" be a good round but it needs more velocity. I like 1000 fps as a floor for a defensive cartridge. My opinion is based on years on the street seeing hundreds of gunshot victims and then follow up at the hospital, morgue, jail etc.
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Old December 28, 2012, 06:21 PM   #70
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"In my posts I was trying to figure out how to explain that you can have a suitable SD "Hardcast" wadcutter"

The Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 150 gr. Hard Cast Wad Cutter (850fps/M.E. 241 ft. lbs.) will punch through just about anything, far better than an expanding bullet unless it fails to expand which is more than a possibility in a .38 Special at which point it will penetrate about the same as the hard cast wadcutter but with a tiny, in comparison, meplat. That backwards loaded hollow base wadcutters are not a good choice is axiomatic. That is not worth consideration.

My question again, is what .38 Special, standard pressure or +P, does anyone think is best? We know that the 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P will only go 8 1/2" in ballistic gelatin. That is a joke. The Corbon DPX goes 12" and would work. So what should we use? I'll put the standard pressure 150 grain hard cast wadcutter up over anything I have seen out of a .38 Special.
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Old December 28, 2012, 09:03 PM   #71
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Just as a side note: nanuk, I agree with you that a WC of any type probably isn't the best thing for self defense. I was just saying a WC can be loaded backwards and shot accurately without fragmenting.

Personally I use hand loaded 240gr XTPs in my 45 colt for PD. My wife loads Corbon +p in her G26 normally but has recently switched to 115gr hornady FTX critical defense.

I hate to say this...but if someone cant handle shooting anything but uber powder puff loads (unless for training, learning or a medical disability to prevent injury) they probably shouldn't be carrying a gun for SD.


(EDIT) just to add about the remarks concerning the FBI shoot out...bigger doesn't always work either...A good friend of my wife's lost his father who was serving a warrant. He was shot several times in the chest with a .45 pistol of some kind (don't know if it was a 45 colt or Auto) He also returned fire hitting the shooter a couple times with 165gr 40S&W Federal Hydra-Shoks. He lived for about a month and passed away....the shooter is still alive and incarcerated

Last edited by BerdanSS; December 28, 2012 at 09:16 PM.
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Old December 29, 2012, 12:55 AM   #72
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jmortimer,

I do agree with you that the BB load is the best in that realm.

To be honest I do not care what any bullet does in any simulation without real world data to support the hypothesis.
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Old December 29, 2012, 01:07 AM   #73
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Most "real world" data is anecdotal hence all the bashing of Marshal and Sanow. What has been settled upon is barrier testing with gelatin, clothing over gelatin, and bare gelatin testing. It seems to work generally. Most people want an expanding bullet. If I did I would carry the Corbon DPX .38 Special. I still believe the FBI protocols are a good place to start. I don't agree with the notion, not your idea, that if you can't man-up and shoot something serious you should pack it in and go unarmed. A .22 LR even in a handgun has undone many a bad guy and meets rule one of a gun fight.
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Old December 29, 2012, 10:03 AM   #74
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I hate to say this...but if someone cant handle shooting anything but uber powder puff loads (unless for training, learning or a medical disability to prevent injury) they probably shouldn't be carrying a gun for SD.
I do not agree with this sentiment at all. If I can't afford the ultra lubricating synthetic oil in my car, should I just forgo any oil at all? I kind of resent this statement. It's borderline pretentious and not the kind of encouragement I feel we should be giving to would be shooters and people wanting to take responsibility for their own defense.
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Old December 29, 2012, 11:22 AM   #75
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Here's some details on that shooting, the 9mm bullet (147gr Slivertip, I believe, but would have to look that up) struck the torso from the side, and stopped at the top of the heart. It took out the aorta. IT was a lethal wound. The ME at the time said, "if he had taken that shot at the operating room door, it would be problematical if they could save him" (paraphrase, its been a long time..
From what I have read the round was a 115gr Silver-tip.

Quote:
That bullet did not fail. It was a lethal wound. What it did not do was instantly STOP the creep. He lived for a bit more than a minute, and during that time fired over 100 rnds from a mini14, killing and wounding several agents, before finally being stopped by hits from a .357, fired at close by a wounded agent as the creep was trying to drive away.
I believe the gun that eventually stop Platt and Matrix was a S&W model 10 or 13 loaded with 38+P LSWCHP fired buy a wounded special agent Edmundo Mireles.

The bottom line is that shooting caused the FBI and other law enforcement agencies to look at bullet ballistics.
Howard
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