The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 20, 2012, 09:31 PM   #1
tank1949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 118
M1 Garand weird accuracy

I have posted a similar article before but now I have additional questions and maybe a solution. I have an M1 Garand that was rebarreled with Kreiger by Clint Fowler. The guns's accuracy is to put first bullet at 7 o'clock position followed by the next seven at 2 o'clock. 7 bullets are moa but with first added into formula=3-4 moa. Always this pattern. After thoroughly cleaning yesterday, I noticed some heavy gouges inside chamber. I presume tooling marks... My concerns is that maybe Fowler heated up the barrel too much when reaming chamber and put too much stress back into barrel. The first shot from cool barrel is almost in same hole, if repeating a cycle. Others have responded that my situation or shot pattern with M1 is not totally unique. Kreiger is supposed to stress relief all of their preimum barrels. Perhaps they missed this one? Or, Fowler reamed the barrel too hot. Any opinions?
tank1949 is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 10:26 PM   #2
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,085
How do you load the first round from the clip?

How does it shoot when single loading without a clip?

It sounds to me like something is happening with the first round stripped from the clip. I wouldn't expect this to be a barrel or chamber issue. But I've been wrong before...
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 10:35 AM   #3
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,794
^^^^^^ What he said.

I have heard this before that the first round out of a magazine does not perform the same as subsequent rounds.

I am not sure why that would be. I have heard of the issue from several posters over time.
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 01:37 PM   #4
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
With all clips or just the first clip?
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 02:52 PM   #5
4EVERM-14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2006
Location: Pennsy
Posts: 574
An M1 that spits shots typically has other issues beyond the barrel. There are many things hanging on the barrel that create problems. Dealing with these vibrations is the real art of the armorer. The other posters have good suggestions about the clip- no clip loading and is worth exploring but I doubt barrel stress is the issue. I'm more of the opinion it is a bedding problem.
__________________
David
NRA Benefactor Member
Distinguished Rifleman #731
Presidents 100
4EVERM-14 is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 04:45 PM   #6
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,133
Is your rifle bedded and has it had all the match modifications done to it?

If it is simply a rack grade Garand with a new barrel you are seeing patterns that do not exist.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 05:57 PM   #7
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,421
Having worn out four 7.62 NATO Garand barrels shooting top scores on a military rifle team, I've never seen any difference between first shot from a clip shooting to any other point of impact as the remaining 7 rounds do with those Garands. And all rounds single loaded shoot to the same point of aim as the first round from a full clip.

The only way I know of that the first round doesn't go where the rest of them do is I had the problem with my first .30-06 Garand issued to me and the Command Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor showed me how to fix it.

'Tis a common belief that the first round from an M1's clip (M14/M1A's magazine, too), or a round single loaded, that the op rod handle needs to be bumped forward with the heel of the trigger hand to make sure the round's fully seated, chambered, fit to the bore or whatever goofy reason the novice believes is the thing to do.

But wait; there's more. . . . all the remaining rounds fired semiautomatically shoot into a decent group. They didn't need the op rod handle bumped by anything to chamber the round the best way. The op rod was semiautomatically positioned just right for every shot. What's the difference?

Bumping the op rod on a chambered round in these rifles will certainly change how it fits at its various contact points to the receiver, follower, barrel, op rod guides, gas cylinder or whatever. And if the op rod ain't exactly in the same place for each and every shot, bullets will shoot improved cylinder bore groups like a shotgun does.

So, if the first rule of loading one of these rifles is to put the pointy end of the round into the chamber first, here's the second rule. Let the op rod spring push the round fully into the chamber and seat (go back into battery) all on its own accord. Learn how to single load a round such that the bolt slams forward full force. If, after charging the magazine with a full clip, the bolt stops against the head of the top round, then bump the op rod handle just enough to overcome the friction of the top round against the clip's inside surfaces and the rounds below it. Do not, (repeat) do not touch the op rod whatsoever after the bolt's closed on a chambered round. That is unless you want that shot to go astray.

The above aside, if that first round is loaded properly and still goes wild, compared to the others, the op rod is not bent/shaped/fit properly to the rifle. Few people on this planet fit Garand op rods correctly. Or the op rod spring may be too weak to properly chamber the first round, but with the op rod and bolt bouncing off the back end adding force to the spring moving them forward to pick up the next round, it may well be chambering the remaining rounds such that the op rod is set back in battery correctly.

Those tooling marks don't seem to effect the last 7 shots from a clip, so they're not the problem.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; December 21, 2012 at 06:30 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 07:31 PM   #8
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
Do u ease the first round in or do you let the action slam home as rds 2-8 do on its own?

Try to slingshot the first rd into the chamber and try it out.

Never mind the guy above me said that lol
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 11:35 AM   #9
tank1949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 118
Thanks to all and rifle was accurized by Fowler and later examined by Clint McGee. I let bolt on first rnd "slam home." I have never had similar accuracy problem with my M1A and it is MOA gun. I was hoping heat might be culprit and cryo'ing it would help get stress out. Barrel is the match grade heavy SS Kreiger. Not std. I will do more testing.
tank1949 is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 03:02 AM   #10
BluRidgDav
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2001
Posts: 186
My Garand does the same thing. It was one of the last M1's made at Springfield, (#5,9XX,XXX) and is in excellent condition.

The first round goes 2MOA low & 2MOA left, and then the next seven rounds cluster together 2MOA higher & righter. I've learned to live with it by "holding off" on that first shot, (when I usually have a little extra time to do so), and then holding "normally" for the rest of the string, as the pace usually picks up. I've fired five en-bloc clips in a row (without "holding off"): I got a nice tight 5-shot group located 2MOA low & left (where all the first rounds went), and a nice 35-shot group in the center of the target. If I load single rounds, one after the other, during slow-fire practice, each and every round will land 2MOA low & left (unless I remember to hold off, or dial in a couple of "Up & Right" clicks beforehand).

I've always figured that it has something to do with the way rounds #2-7 get loaded automatically. But, I've never pushed on the op-rod after chambering the first round, as was mentioned by Bart B. I've always just allowed the bolt to slam forward normally, sling-shot fashion. But, maybe I'll start pounding on it the next time. It might actually help with my first-round-flier problem (HA-HA)!

I did install a Wolfe "extra power" op-rod spring. It didn't help with the first-round-fliers, but, it did increase the pain associated with the occasional M1 Thumb (ouch)!
__________________
Watch your top-knot.
BluRidgDav is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 08:42 AM   #11
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,421
It's time for me to add the non-mechanical rifle or ammo cause of first round's way-out shot placement. I had this situation when I started high power competition.

After getting into position and loading the first round, new (inexperienced?) shooters oft times pull the trigger and/or hold the rifle different for the first shot. It goes to some other place other than where the center of all the following shots go.

When I laid down on the 600 or 1000 yard line with my Garand and its sights were set to the best zero established for the load used, that first shot was high and left. At 600 yards 'twas about a foot out from dead center at 10:30 o'clock. Subsequent shots were well centered. So, I just adjusted my second sighter shot (when allowed) to strike there if the first one didn't. That second shot went to call; center if so called. It took a couple years to get my mind controlling my body muscles to shoot that first round exactly the same as all those that followed. It was an emotional high to finally be able to adjust my second sighter to strike dead center instead of out in the 8 ring.

300 yard rapid fire from prone was a different issue. I always (yes, every time, both with a Garand and bolt action match rifle) had to get my sighters at 10 o'clock in thel 10-ring; about 2" high and 3" left of dead center. When I stood up, loaded the first 2 or 5 rounds then laid down and fired them, they went center. Reloading the last 8 or 5 rounds also went center. Never did get that corrected. But I've learned over the years that others have the same problem.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old December 23, 2012, 01:37 PM   #12
edfrompa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 1999
Posts: 315
Had the M1-Garand in the Marines. I was shooting bulleyes at five hundred yds standing position. Had no clue what the heck I was doing. The DI came up to me and said do you know what you are doing?? I said no sir? You are hitting all bulleyes at 500yds. With iron sights! I am recommending you for sniper training. It is an awesome firearm. I know mine was very accurate. The one I was issued had a star barrel, which I think was their mistake.
edfrompa is offline  
Old January 6, 2013, 11:48 AM   #13
tank1949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 118
Blue and others,

Thx and other have told me the same. I went to range last week but as I was just starting to shoot 200 target with M1, the back stop blew down. Rangemaster indicated that he would have to spend conciderable time this Mon rebuilding. I will post outcome.

THX!!!!!
tank1949 is offline  
Old January 12, 2013, 11:31 PM   #14
pdh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2004
Location: west Virginia
Posts: 289
Wow......I had my Garand fixed up with new wood, new Douglas Supreme barrel and parkerized.
It groups the exact same way as mentioned here! I thought..what the heck??

Thanks Bart B.
pdh is offline  
Old January 13, 2013, 01:35 AM   #15
bbman25
Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 35
I'd agree with Bart, I have noticed slight differences in mine as well, not as bad as yours seems to be, but I would definitely say there is some truth to that, especially if he is an experienced shooter.

Hope they get that ranged fixed up soon, I'd be interested to know if thats the real issue
bbman25 is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 06:35 AM   #16
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 3,824
I'm just getting started with my Garand,I was reading a thread here on loading for the Garand.It gave a link to a Mar 1984 article in American Rifleman by John R Clarke.

He discusses "primer up" vs "primer down" powder positioning,and suggests it would make 100 fps difference in velocity with some loads.

He also says,due to recoil and cycling,rounds 2 through 8 will have the powder in the "primer up" condition.

Could it be if a guy slings up and gets into position muzzle up,he has a "primer down" powder condition on round one,and a "primer up" on 2 through 8?

Here is the link:

http://home.comcast.net/~jlemons01/R...ohnRClarke.pdf

(fixed dead link)

Last edited by HiBC; January 23, 2013 at 05:23 AM.
HiBC is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 06:28 PM   #17
tank1949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 118
HiBC-Sorry dead link.
tank1949 is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 06:39 PM   #18
tank1949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 118
57 grain of H380 are tack drivers at two hundred yards, but I have to shoot one at a time. I got tired of looking for clip. I shot several this way. I mean sub moa groups. This is full case capacity loadl with 150 smk.. Range was 50+ cold weather and wind no problem. Then, I let gun cool between rnds after loading a full 8 rnd clip. 7 to 2'oclock group. And the first round from this volly was a bit higher and to the right from the single shot vollies. I am swapping out scope just to be sure scope is not problem. I presently have a Schmidt Bender 21/2 x 10 56 mm on it. This scope is not cheap import but it is man made. Perhaps scope internal springs are defective? I will share after another range trip.
tank1949 is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 07:05 PM   #19
Orlando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2009
Posts: 274
My two best shooters throw the first round

Orlando is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 04:58 AM   #20
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 3,824
OK,I'll paste this link again.I got it off a thread in handloading"Loading for the Garand"
http://home.comcast.net/~jlemons01/R...ohnRClarke.pdf
But think about it,if your first round,the powder is settled back in the case,near the primer..Bang,recoil leaves the powder forward,and so does chambering the round.The 06 has some air space.Different ignition setup.

If you are in position when the bolt flies forward,the powder will be forward .If you bump the op rod,as Bart mentioned,the powder will shift rearward.Adjusting sling,etc,could lift the muzzle,and shift the powder back.

I do not know this from experience,just interpeting the article.



Tank,on H-380,I used to load it in my Whelen.I read a profile article on it in one of the magazines,Handloader or something.I recall its pressure curve is relatively linear for a while,but then it really spikes.I don't think you'd see it a Garand pressures,I kept using it in the Whelen..Its just good to know.

Last edited by HiBC; January 23, 2013 at 05:21 AM.
HiBC is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 05:36 AM   #21
Orlando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2009
Posts: 274
I beleive the reason it happens is the first round is loaded by hand relasing the op rod and the next 7 are loaded by the action cycling. The first rd isnt inserted with the same force as the others
Orlando is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 11:43 AM   #22
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,421
HiBC, having loaded a few thousand single rounds in Garands, I've never noticed a problem with where the powders at in the case. After single round's loaded then pointing the muzzle down (powder goes right behind the bullet; space between powder and flash hole) or muzzle up (opposite powder position), never once did I notice any accuracy difference through 600 yards. Maybe 1/2 MOA difference at 1000 yards.

Powder position in Garand ammo causing problem's a myth for the most part. But you'll see a tiny difference testing it in a universal receiver for velocity and pressure. Forget about it. If you put a powder charge in a new (or full length sized) case and see how far it comes up below the neck, it's gonna be a few millimeters below the shoulder neck area for the most part. Hold that case horizontally and imagine that same space now distributed acorss the top of the round. The top of the level powder will be well above the flash hole as well as above the base of the bullet. Therefore, it's nye impossible to have a normally chambered round in a horizontally loaded Garand to have any powder at or below the flash hole. Only if one tilts the rifle down at about 40 some odd degrees will the powder move off from around the flash hole.

Get a glass or clear plastic tube with the same internal average diameter of a .30-06 case, cut it to length of a case from head to half way up the shoulder, put a standard charge of powder in it, then move it around at different angles and watch the powder move around noting the angle needed for the powder to not be at the tube's middle point at the high end where the flash hole is in a normal round.

Goodness, folks, this is really easy to figure out and learn what the realities are. If the powder's position in the case was so darned critical, how in the dickens did folks shooting 10-shot rapid fire (in 60 or 70 seconds) matches at 200 and 300 yards ever get all 10 shot holes on the target inside 4 inches; sometimes only 3 inches? For both of two 10-shot strings, too, in 20-shot rapid fire matches. They load the rifle with two rounds while standing with the muzzle up, then sit/lay down moving the rifle about getting it into their shoulder, then fire the first two shots. Reload with a full clip for the last eight shots.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; January 23, 2013 at 03:36 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 03:28 PM   #23
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 5,421
Orlando, if those targets showing a wild shot that's the first round fired, the reason's not how the ammo's loaded. Your op rod's probably in a different place for the first shot compared to all the others. Those so called velocity differences caused by where the powder's positioned will not change point of impact more than 2/10th inch at 100 yards. Or 7/10ths inch at 300 yards.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; January 23, 2013 at 03:53 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 07:46 PM   #24
tank1949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 118
Orlando's patteren is almost the opposit of mine. My first is at 7 and the rest at 2 o'clock. And, there is no doubt that 57 grains of H380 fills case with 150 SMKs. I have an adjustable gas plug and so far I have not noticed any cases that show excessive pressure. But, I had heard about the primer up and down before. I suspect that if people used powder that created a lot of void, that might cause a problem. I have used IMR 4064, H4895, IMR 4895, IMR 8208, and now H380. All producing the same pattern with H380 the less of the anomally. My M1A shoots better than me. It's a driver. No problems like M1 anomaly. If this is typocal with M1s, then why do some hold a better group? I have spent a fortune on the M1 and would like to know why it doesn't shoot well.When I try another scope, I'll post results.
tank1949 is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 07:54 PM   #25
Orlando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2009
Posts: 274
those two rifles shoot well except for the first round
Those are 100 yd groups off bench with surplus ammo.
I have done everything I can think of and they both continue to throw the frsit rd
I really feel its the nature of the beast for a semi auto
Alot of guys wouldnt even realize their rifle was throwing the first rd as they dont get that tight of groups so it isnt that noticable
Orlando is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13763 seconds with 9 queries