The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 20, 2012, 05:53 PM   #26
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
Americans use the tv for entertainment, most do not consider it a hall of learning. When I don't like a particular show, I change the channels and do not bash people of a particular geographic region.

Quote:

It's this bravdo that these TV programes seem to promote that sickens me.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:10 PM   #27
David13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 243
Boa
There are more deer here than ever before. And not enough hunters. The hunters either eat the deer or give it to a food bank, so people can eat it.
There are not enough hunters.
Each year 1,500,000 accidents are caused by deer, and trucks, cars, and motorcycles, sometimes resulting in death, not only to the deer, but to humans.
We need more hunters.
dc
David13 is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:26 PM   #28
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
This sourced from: © International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources.


Quote:
Taxonomy [top]
Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family
ANIMALIA CHORDATA REPTILIA SQUAMATA VIPERIDAE

Scientific Name: Crotalus atrox
Species Authority: Baird & Girard, 1853
Common Name/s:
English – Western Diamond-backed Rattlesnake, Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Assessment Information [top]
Red List Category & Criteria: Least Concern ver 3.1
Year Published: 2007
Assessor/s: Frost, D.R., Hammerson, G.A. & Santos-Barrera, G.
Reviewer/s: Cox, N., Chanson, J.S. & Stuart, S.N. (Global Reptile Assessment Coordinating Team)
Contributor/s:
Justification:
Listed as Least Concern in view of its wide distribution, presumed large population, and because it is unlikely to be declining fast enough to qualify for listing in a more threatened category.


Population [top]
Population: This species is represented by a large number of occurrences. Campbell and Lamar (2004) mapped hundreds of collection sites. The adult population size is unknown but certainly exceeds 100,000. This is a common snake in much of its range. Its extent of occurrence, area of occupancy, and number of subpopulations are probably relatively stable; population size is probably declining at less than 10% over 10 years or three generations.
Population Trend: Stable
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:34 PM   #29
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,515
"With the possible exception, with a species that I know about, is the alligator which are now almost a million or more. However you try and export a live one, even from a farm, and see how far you get with getting an export permit from the U.S Fish and Game."

You're talking about a federal government bureaucracy and their rules and regulations. "Red tape" at its finest. The difficulty is not caused by anything having to do with the numbers of alligators. It's bureaucracy in action.

You are quite welcome to entertain any opinion which pleases your psyche. But do not try to impose those opinions onto us unless you have reasonably current factual numbers to support them.

In the for-what-it's-worth (FWiW) department, the odds are very high that we who post in this forum have more background in outdoor activities than any member of such groups as PETA or HSUS. I've been an outdoorsman since 1941, with exposure to farming, ranching, hunting and fishing as well as with wildlife biologists at a professional level of interaction and learning.

The younger set here at this forum doesn't do so badly, either. Visit and learn.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:35 PM   #30
12GaugeShuggoth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 534
Speaking for myself, I can say that most definitely the "shoot what ever I see" mentality is far from the truth. Again that's for me, I've known many people who really do shoot what ever wanders out in front of them, regardless of anything else. That type of mentality sickens me. If I'm going to shoot, there's a reason. I'm either going to eat it, or I'm killing it to keep it away from our animals (coyotes are the big one here). Of the three freezers in the house, two of them have nothing in them but stuff from the garden and venison.

As for the snake issue, most of the snakes I come across are either water moccasins, copperheads, or common black snakes and king snakes. Unless they are near the animals I tend to leave them alone. My experience with snakes is that unless you mess with them they generally don't need to be worried about. That's just my experience, in my specific area.

As for the specific t.v. programs being referenced (and others similar in nature), to me they're equal parts goofy and demeaning.
__________________
---Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.---

---Enlightenment is the ability to take infinite pains---
MOLON LABE
12GaugeShuggoth is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:42 PM   #31
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
Art, I believe that hunting is the last vestige of true humanity, when hunting is gone, so will go humanity.

All forms of hunting are older than recorded history, predator and varmint hunting is most likely the oldest of all.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:47 PM   #32
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
12ga,

The snake hunting being referenced is about western diamondback rattlesnakes that are being legally harvested and sold. Not really about controlling numbers, but that's why landowners let them hunt.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:51 PM   #33
12GaugeShuggoth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 534
Quote:
12ga,

The snake hunting being referenced is about western diamondback rattlesnakes that are being legally harvested and sold. Not really about controlling numbers, but that's why landowners let them hunt.
I know, that's why I specified that I was just referring to my own experience in my particular area.
__________________
---Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.---

---Enlightenment is the ability to take infinite pains---
MOLON LABE
12GaugeShuggoth is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:52 PM   #34
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
No problem lol, was reiterating for others.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:57 PM   #35
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,515
rickyrick, you remember your Latin, do you not? "Cogito, ergo venor." -- "I think, therefore I hunt."
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 06:58 PM   #36
boa10
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Posts: 6
The Whole of man kind were at one time hunter gathers thats a long time ago and in my mind in todays society no longer vaild unless you come from a third world country like here in Peru or are really poor and have no other means to servive. Why are some animals a problem with their numbers I would suggest its man made. First most if not all of the predators were killed off as in the case of the jaguar which was found in Texas. Then with the continuing improchment of people into the wilderness to live their are no suitable places for these animals, like deer, to go. You maybe right when you say there were more in the 1600s but then they had most of the U.S to live in The attitude of I want to live in these places, but I don't want any animals that I feel could harm me be around me. Ok then don't live in such places
People mention the UK and the tradition of hunting may I point out its now illegal to hunt foxes for sport and it showed that hunting did really nothing in controlling foxes as hunters clamed.And people who live in fox county have to put up with foxes taking one or two chickens. There is also the relization that foxes have been forced into some towns that were before open country because there is no longer any game for them to eat also its easier for them to find food. All man made.

With the rattlesnake numbers how many were caught and killed? Even with the amont of 4000lbs that over 1000 snakes Do you think you can take this amount and there will be no effect on local populations? Come on you are fooling yourself. As for venom extraction you don't have to kill the animale to get it. No its basically for a show and a fun day out also to show how dangerous these animals are and how brave the people are who catch and handle them are.The by product is that some charities recive some donations, not a reson for wholesale slaughter.
An Englishman in Peru

Thanks for posting the 2007 status of : atrox. I did notice the use of the word probably They don't know for sure and thats a 5 year old study. Lets hope they are right and there are still enough for people to go out on a days killing spree that is the end result for most if not all of these snakes caught.
As for exporting of alligators I find it ironic that you can get papers to go out to kill them in their 100s but no paperwork to be able to export 2 live baby ones. Only in America.
An Englishman in peru
boa10 is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 07:23 PM   #37
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,077
the belief that knowledge of how to hunt and actual practice of such is no longer valid in human society is flawed. case in point, during the great depression, a time of serious financial decline in our nation, many people did not have the money necessary to buy enough food to feed their families.

the united states was far from a 3rd world country in the 1930s yet many had to rely on hunting to keep food on the table. the term history repeats itself is not a fallacy and definitely has not been rendered invalid as of yet. no government is permanent and when any major government falls, usually the economy, and certain social dynamics also decline. this was witnessed in the southern united states after the American civil war when the people had replaced northern money for the duration of the war and then nobody would accept confederate money after the war, literally rendering the entire southern populace penniless, how did those people eat? gardens, gathering, and hunting. the same will happen when the dollar is no longer the accepted currency of the Americas and the same will be true of the Pound, Peso, Euro, Yuan and Yen. hunting is a necessary skillset that should be passed on to our children.

as already stated man has not always taken the time to consider his actions in the long term in relation to his environment. this led to the extinctions species such as the northern rockies Gray wolf, northern american Jaguars, and others however this is not simply an American problem. several other species such as Auks and Dodo Birds were hunted to extinction by English Sailors if I recall correctly. this is why hunting is such a heavily regulated activity in most states, you must take a hunters education course teaching firearms safety, hunting ethics, and environmental conservation before you will be allowed to purchase a hunting license. then you must buy a specific tag for a specific area, for a specific species that are rationed out based on what the populations can handle. in areas with over population extra tags and even waiving of tags can be placed in effect to bring populations down to healthy levels.

you are very right, certain predators were hunted to extinction by narrow minded americans long ago but it would be irresponsible of us to leave these populations unchecked now that they are missing necessary predatory species to control the populations naturally.

finally I challenge you to follow your own argument, if you see a dangerous animal, such as a poisonous snake, or large predator such as a wolf, or cat in your back yard...please feel free to leave him to his business. I'm sure your family will understand when you, your wife or your child is killed, I mean you were asking for it by being in that animals natural habitat.

that kind of logic does not fly with me.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.

Last edited by tahunua001; December 20, 2012 at 07:30 PM.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 07:26 PM   #38
huntinaz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Location: az
Posts: 999
Quote:
The Whole of man kind were at one time hunter gathers thats a long time ago and in my mind in todays society no longer vaild unless you come from a third world country like here in Peru or are really poor and have no other means to servive.
You do understand that eating meat from the store is a direct result of animals being butchered, do you not? Are you suggesting that having a butcher kill a beef is acceptable, but hunting a deer for meat is barbaric? We still have to eat, we haven't evolved past ingesting food for sustinence.


Quote:
Then with the continuing improchment of people into the wilderness to live their are no suitable places for these animals, like deer, to go.
Where do you sugest we live then?

Quote:
With the rattlesnake numbers how many were caught and killed? Even with the amont of 4000lbs that over 1000 snakes Do you think you can take this amount and there will be no effect on local populations?[
The snakes breed, thus creating more snakes. It has been suggested you show evidence of population decline from snake roundups. As a biologist, surely you understand the concepts of reproduction and constancy and the ability of a population to survive/thrive despite predation. It's been a few years since my genetics and evolution classes, but I remember the take home messages.

Plain and simple, a population can sustain and even grow despite predation. The degree of the predation obviously is key, along with other sustainability factors. If you are a biologist, you understand this. The statement I bolded makes me think you may need to brush up on your material.

It looks to me that you are letting the emotion of a critter dying mold your opinins, and not looking at the issue(s) factually. It is a fact that dying is a very big part of ecosystems. Individuals in populations die eventually. There's no getting around it. This is a common thing in the world today, to pretend death is not inevitable or necessary, and I'm not sure I want to get into that. But...

The bottom line is that so far nobody has come forward with proof that rattler roundups, or deer hunting (and whatever else has been brought up) are destroying any populations. I know you are an Englishman in Peru. We have on this board, Texans from Texas. Maybe it would be appropriate to ask them; "hey Texans... how's the rattlesnake population doing in Texas?"

I can only speak for Arizona as I don't frequent the state of Texas. The diamondback population in Arizona is THRIVING
__________________
"Once you quit hearing sir and ma'am, the rest is soon to follow." - Cormack McCarthy
"Feed me, or feed me to something. I just want to be part of the food chain." -Al Bundy
huntinaz is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 07:31 PM   #39
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
You can't win with these guys. Can't listen to reason has no grip on reality. Please Boa please show me a more recent study. The roundup that I am guessing you are opposed to, just happens to be observed by a State of Texas biologists. Sure is a lot of Internet biologists/herpatologists as of late. You can come on a guided hunt and see for yourself, there's no secrets. You can visit the snakes at the roundup...good luck finding a hotel though.

I think by jaguar you would be referring to the mountain lion, cougar, panther and the numerous other names, those are very much alive.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 07:46 PM   #40
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 594
In most of the places in the world where there are no "hunter gather types" how is that wildlife population doing. Do you see deer and other wildlife as you drive around, or must you go to a specific place namely an estate belonging to a noble or at the least very rich individual with their permission to see wildlife. I seldom make the 23 mile drive to work or back home without seeing white-tailed deer or wild turkeys, or coyotes, occasionally a bobcat, red fox etc. In my opinion we are still a hunter gatherer society we have simply progressed to a point where we pay others to "hunt" (ranchers, butchers etc.) and "gather" (wheat, corn, soybeans etc.) for us.

As for trying to legally export an alligator, we in the U.S. have had more than a few problems associated with imported animals, and plants becoming rampant and causing problems, so our federal bureaucracy takes steps to avoid helping it happen elsewhere. (Think Snakeheads, Burmese Pythons, Africanized Honeybees, Nutria, Kudzu, Serecia Lespediza, Silver and Bighead Carp, Zebra & Quagga Mussels) Curious as to how you feel about the sudden increase in the population of burmese pythons, and other snakes and reptiles in Florida, should we leave them alone, take steps to eliminate them as much as possible since they are non native, or somewhere in-between?
Panfisher is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 07:56 PM   #41
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,077
also, while I am trying to keep this civil and on topic I must point out that it is in incredibly poor taste to enter a forum where every member is, naturally, a hunter and label anyone that partakes in such activities, a barbarian.

you may as well walk up to the Queen of England and tell her that she is a tyrant since a monarchy is essentially, a government devoid of public interaction.

Quote:
Thanks for posting the 2007 status of : atrox. I did notice the use of the word probably They don't know for sure and thats a 5 year old study. Lets hope they are right and there are still enough for people to go out on a days killing spree that is the end result for most if not all of these snakes caught.
you do realize that the rattle snake roundup has been an annual event for decades, and has actually been decreasing in popularity and size in recent years? if there was going to be a major population decrease in 5 years then the roundup would have been shut down long before the 2007 study.

you are crying about 1,000(roughly) animals being killed at an annual event. how many cattle are slaughtered on a yearly basis in peru alone? I am willing to wager much higher numbers. 1,000 in is a fraction of the natural occurring mortality rate and does little, if anything to hurt the population.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.

Last edited by tahunua001; December 20, 2012 at 08:07 PM.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 08:00 PM   #42
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,973
Funny, but the English had a long, "proud" history of shooting anything that moved just for the hell of it.

Africa, India, Asia, even the Americas...

Many British-led "expeditions" of "exploration?"

As often as not simply code for "let's go kill everything that we can."

Kind of hard to be sanctimonious when your own history isn't exactly... stellar.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 08:09 PM   #43
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,326
Quote:
Even with the amont of 4000lbs that over 1000 snakes Do you think you can take this amount and there will be no effect on local populations?
There is no need to think/speculate about it, you can tell by the consistently large takes that the populations are not declining. Again, you need to begin with actual data rather than speculating and asking others to agree with your speculation.
Quote:
Lets hope they are right...
No, if you don't agree, go find data that supports your contentions/assertions/speculation.

You can not justify your opinion with speculation, emotion and hope. Opinions are justified by data/evidence/facts.
Quote:
As for exporting of alligators I find it ironic that you can get papers to go out to kill them in their 100s but no paperwork to be able to export 2 live baby ones. Only in America.
Animals can be legally hunted at levels that will maintain population levels, however, there are strict limitations on other activities involving animals, particularly activities that might be considered commercial. Market hunting, and trapping game animals for commercial sale/export are generally illegal.

You have come here with emotion, speculation and opinions but no facts. You have been answered with logic, and with facts.

In spite of that, you continue to argue.

You have committed a number of logical fallacies, a few of which are listed below:

Appeal to authority: "As a biologist that specilizes in reptiles".

Appeal to emotion:
  • "if it moves shot it" (not legal except with certain very limited species)
  • "killing them on sight" (not legal except with certain very limited species)
  • "The TV shows on reptile hunters being brave people are laughable."
  • " it is crule and ...more important no place in a civilized world."
  • "It's this bravdo that these TV programes seem to promote that sickens me."
  • "this barbaric custom"
  • "wholesale slaughter"
  • "The obsession that a lot of Americans have with guns and to an extent killing animals"
  • "a days killing spree"

Stating "fact" with no evidence to support it or when the evidence directly contradicts it:
  • "With reference to ratttlesnake round ups its a fact the numbers are not as many as in the "good old days" and the sizes are on the whole are smaller." (You finally admitted you had no evidence more recent than the 1960s)
  • "There's one thing the need for killing animals for the "pot" another in large scale killing for money and sport/fun." (The rattlesnakes are used for food, skins and for antivenin, there may be money and sport involved, but ultimately the animals are eaten and are otherwise made use of.)
  • "Even when there is a quota its the attitude of "we must use the quota" at all costs that you see animals of all sizes being taken it doesn't seem to matter." (While unprotected species, like rattlesnakes may be taken at any size, the take of most game animals is restricted both by quota and generally by such other aspects as sex, antler configuration, size, etc.)

Since you seem to have no interest in debating this topic on the basis of factual evidence and since you continue to rely on emotionally charged, "sound bite" style "arguments, it is clear that you came here neither to discuss this topic rationally in the interest of responsible hunting/firearms ownership, nor to inform, nor to be informed.

That leaves only two possible goals.

1. You came to air your opinion but with no accompanying goal to support it factually. If that is your goal, it has certainly been accomplished and there's no need for the thread to continue.

2. You came to stir up trouble. That is unacceptable and if that is your goal, this thread can not continue.

Either way, this thread is done.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14028 seconds with 9 queries