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Old December 12, 2012, 07:18 PM   #76
hooligan1
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I'm like Art, and I do agree with most replies, however in this "day" of all day long just how many shots must be made?
I can take my bone stock Savage 110, .270 win., and shoot most of the day, but I got tons of other stuff the wife says to do... What do you do?
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Old December 12, 2012, 08:43 PM   #77
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but I got tons of other stuff the wife says to do... What do you do

Like mow the grass,shopping,grocery store,ect ect Me- I am out at range in summer by 5 AM. I can most of the time be done by 2or 3 PM. Still leaves most of the day to get those other icky things done. I have become obsessed with this shooting thing, I don't hunt any more so I just shoot paper now.

On a side note--- How many here shoot at Casselton Range in North Dakota?
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Old December 13, 2012, 03:01 AM   #78
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So what percentage of shooters can routinely shoot 1moa? 1/2moa? And under what conditions...
No Lead Sled, bag of shot between you and your shoulder, or Past recoil pad.

And I'll add what caliber and platform?
Caliber 375 or over. Bolt or Single shot under 10 lbs. There are quite a few rifles that meet these criteria. For example a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott. They weigh in @ 9 lbs. They get to be quite painful to shoot fairly quickly. The gun might be capable but very few people are after a few shots.

So to the OP: There are enough guns out there that can. There are probably a lot fewer people behind those rifles that can. It's not the tools fault that the wielder is not capable of using it to the full advantage.
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Old December 13, 2012, 07:10 AM   #79
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So to the OP: There are enough guns out there that can. There are probably a lot fewer people behind those rifles that can. It's not the tools fault that the wielder is not capable of using it to the full advantage

BINGO. Plus 1
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Old December 13, 2012, 08:37 AM   #80
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My Tikka T3 (chambered in 30-06) will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA consistently with 150 grain Federal Powershock. The only things that aren't stock on that rifle are the scope, mounts, and bipod.

Whether or not *I* can shoot that well... that's another story.

Take it FWIW. I know that my rifle's more accurate than I am, even with factory ammo.
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Old December 13, 2012, 10:12 AM   #81
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When I miss a POA (happens sometimes), I know whether or not it is my fault. If I get a flyer and I know I squeezed off a good one, then I look to the ammo. All the rifles I have handloaded for improved their accuracy when comparing to factory ammo. I always hear this rhetorical,"Most rifles can shoot MOA, most people can't". I just can't believe that off of a solid rest with an accurate rifle most people couldn't shoot a group of 5 shots into an inch at 100yards. A group of 10 would be another thing, but even then, as long as the rifle was capable, nearly anyone should be able to do it off of a rest. I know for certain I can shoot 10-shots into 1/2" with both of my .22 rifles at 50 yards with a front rest and rear bag.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:23 PM   #82
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2.5 MOA :p

Yesterday morning I went to the range to sight in a Remington Model 7 .243. I took along my Rem 700 BDL Varmint .308, thinking after I was done shooting in the .243 in, maybe I'd try some .308 125 grainers I'd loaded up.

I already had the .243 bore sighted so I slapped a few stick on targets on an ISPC target and set it on the target stand at 100 yards. After I sat up the Model 7 on the bench, I suddenly had the bright idea of shooting a quick five shot group with the .308, while lying prone on the concrete and using nothing but the bipod for support.

I loaded the magazine all the the way, then pressed them down and put one in the chamber, now it was going to be a six shot group. I set the 3-9 scope on six power and lay down on the cold 35 degree concrete. I got comfortable and hit the go button on my range timer, when the buzzer went off, I aimed at the lower left target, squeezed the trigger and blah, blah, blah...20.8 seconds latter I was empty. Then I fired three shots off the bench in about a minute, with the unsighted in .243 Model 7.


The .308, off the bipod in 20.8 seconds group, measured 2.5 inches exactly from outside edge to outside edge. The .243 group(first one I ever fired with that rifle by the way) measures 9/10ths of an inch.

Several things going on here. I haven't fired a rifle in several weeks. My 700 BDL Varmint is sighted in with 150 grain Ballistic Tips. I had never tried that 125 grain load in any of my four .308 rifles. I shot off the cold concrete, with no mat and only the bipod for support and I shot fast.

Is it a good group under the circumstances? I don't know, its kind of mediocre in my mind, but its real, honest and every shot would have been deadly to pretty far out there.
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Old December 15, 2012, 03:44 PM   #83
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People parrot stupid shizniz all the time..

How many times do you hear.. "xxxx... yeah..xx BUT HOW ARE THE GROUPS??"

followed by more conversations... 'but DOES IT GROUP???"

more more more, 'And it groups good?? Cause mine groups great!"

If I never hear 1 MOA all day long or the word GROUP/GROUPS/GROUPING for 20 years it will be too soon.

The stuff I hear and read on the local NJ forums would make your head spin.
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Old December 16, 2012, 05:01 AM   #84
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MOA

I have posted this pic before of these two bulls - shot the last rip to the range with my AR 15. They represent 20 shots fired from the prone position with iron sights. The strings were fired consecutively in a period of about ten minutes. Neither has all 10 in an MOA group.....but a really good shooter would do that, probably all day long.
The first target - on the left - has only seven shots showing. The other three are in the seven and eight rings and out of the pic.
I wasn't trying for a good group; I was trying for a good score.
The point is that, if a duffer like me can get this close shooting with irons and from an off the bench position, then putting a scope on the gun and bench resting it will very probably produce that MOA shooting that y'all are writing about.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:28 PM   #85
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I have seen people shoot a 3 shot group of only a 1/4 inch and brag about it but if they shoot another group it may not hit the same spot exactly or it may be a bigger group. Eventually after so many 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch groups hitting here and there you eventually end up with a total group of about 1 and a half to 2 inches.

barrel warpage from long shot strings can do these things. Even with the heaviest barrel and waiting several minutes between shots there is still a rising heat level that will change the point of impact slightly.

Even the .220 swift at 100 yards with a 10 mph crosswind will drift at least 1/2 inch if not more.

The temperature may be different than it was when you zeroed the gun.

group size is one thing but putting them in the same spot day in and day out under differing conditions is pretty difficult.

Try the penny challenge at 100 yards. tape a penny on a target and try to hit it. You might find you and your gun are not the moa all day combo you think you are.

Not to say there arent people who might be able to do this consistently but almost certianly most cannot.
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:57 PM   #86
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Let's not get too literal on this. Picking fly poop out of pepper ain't all that profitable. I still think that the "all day long" phrase is used to mean "reliably" and/or "consistently".

So why worry about it?
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Old December 17, 2012, 06:53 PM   #87
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Here is my favorite target. We used this several months as an internet contest.

Our rules. Print this on an 8.5x11 sheet. Inner black solid circle will be 0.5MOA. Show up at the range and break open a new box of 20 rnds (or grab 20 of your reloads). You have 4 rnds to zero. Then fire 16 rounds only onto the paper from 100 yards. 1 rnd to each target. Break the solid black (no rips) for a point, break the inner white dot for an X (to settle ties).



It will humble most subMOA shooters. I personally consider 12 a pass/fail for a "good" shooter.

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Old December 17, 2012, 07:10 PM   #88
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target

I like that target. It reminds me of the indoor small bore target.
The problem I would have at 100 yards is seeing the little bulls.
How would I shoot that with iron sights?
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:19 PM   #89
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Unsure about the iron sight issue... guess you could use 50 or whatever you needed to see it (???) .... our small group typically is a scoped rifle contest.

Regardless of the distance / caliber / etc. shooting a target like this "well" requires control of group, control of POI, consistency for an entire box of ammo, and control of pressure if you carry a good score to the last line.

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Old December 18, 2012, 11:32 AM   #90
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I'd say, "Pretty wishful thinking" for the most part outside of the bench rest, or varmint caliber community. Too, it depends on how many rounds are in the group...ten shots? five shots? three shots?...heck I've got a cpl lever actions that'll keep the first two in an inch at 100 yds, most of the time...but that sure doesn't mean any time, anywhere, on demand. Rod
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Old December 18, 2012, 11:45 AM   #91
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Try the penny challenge at 100 yards. tape a penny on a target and try to hit it. You might find you and your gun are not the moa all day combo you think you are.
People sure have odd standards!

First, I hear that we have to fire like 20 rounds in 10 minutes, or some such thing, now we have to hit a penny?

A penny is a lot smaller than an inch, about 3/4 actually.

Besides which, I could miss the penny by 4 inches 5 times and still have a 1/2 MOA group, unless we've suddenly also decided that a group is only a group if it's in a certain spot?

I guess folks don't realize that the actual outer edges of a 1 MOA group with a .308 rifle could actually be 1.308 inches?

Take a .308 and put every bullet in a circle that measures 1.308". That's a 1 MOA group. If you use a .204Ruger, the circle has to be 1.204", use a 50BMG and you can go all the way out to 1.510"

Look at those numbers fellas. That's not that small. There's no time limit. You don't have to hit a penny.

1 MOA is NOT that hard!
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Old December 19, 2012, 10:55 AM   #92
howabouttheiris
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"You don't have to hit a penny."

BUT you will ~2/3 of the time.... so it is not that bad of a test.





(assumptions in math......US penny = .75", bullet = 0.308", 1MOA = 1" @ 100 yards.... actually 65.42%.... but you get the point.)
(assumptions in talent..... you spend the 30 seconds it takes to center your group on the bull)
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Old December 19, 2012, 12:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by howabouttheiris View Post
"You don't have to hit a penny."

BUT you will ~2/3 of the time.... so it is not that bad of a test.





(assumptions in math......US penny = .75", bullet = 0.308", 1MOA = 1" @ 100 yards.... actually 65.42%.... but you get the point.)
(assumptions in talent..... you spend the 30 seconds it takes to center your group on the bull)
I almost never see groups posted that are centered on the bull. In fact, I never shoot them myself. My rifles are zeroed at some odd distance, like 273 yards or something, whatever it comes out to for the cartridge and bullets best MPBR zero. I generally shoot at 100, where almost all of my guns are 3/4-1 1/2 high or so. Pictures of groups posted by others are most often no where near "the bull".

Mathematically, if you are shooting 1 MOA at 100, zero your gun at that distance and try to hit a penny, you should do it a fair bit of the time. However, it is not a true indicator or standard. Many guys would have trouble seeing a penny at 100. Doesn't mean their gun can't hit it, they just need a larger aim point, but the gun will still shoot under 1 MOA.

Technically, you could shoot all the way around a penny with anything smaller than a .308 and still be 1 MOA. Even with a .308, you could shoot all the way around a penny, get a group of 1.058 and your only .011 larger than 1MOA.

Anyhow, the fact remains that 1 MOA isn't very hard to do.
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Old December 19, 2012, 12:27 PM   #94
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I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this.

"1 MOA all day long" is a boast, bragging, BS, whatever you want to call it, it's an exaggeration intended to emphasize a point. "I own an accurate rifle that is capable of shooting 1 MOA, as am I", that's what the person is saying. That said, can your rifle shoot 1 MOA any time you take it out? Can your rifle shoot 20 shots into 1 MOA? Mine can, I have done it. Repeatedly.

Shooting a 1" group and hitting a 1" target at 100 yds are totally different discussions.

I build rifles, and as Brian said, 1 MOA is no big deal. Many rifles nowadays are capable of shooting 1 MOA for 3 or 5 shots. Many people are not, but that is a different matter.
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Old December 19, 2012, 01:48 PM   #95
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"I almost never see groups posted that are centered on the bull"

Agreed, as you will shoot your POA out and get sloppy results. We do some contests were we shoot a group at a known POA. We then scan the target and use OnTarget to score. (like 10 rounds at 300 yards, and the score is sum of all shots distances from center (NOT CENTER OF THE GROUP)) In this case, I will add an aiming dot x" low and adjust my elevation to compensate.

Anyway.... there are lots of shooters here that love groups. I think a perfectly grouped set of shots that hit the berm vs the target are just that.... misses. IMHO if your goal is to hit the penny, then a 1/2MOA group that is 1" left is the result of you missing consistently.... again IMHO not a feat to be proud of. While some will cut this out and post it online like they are above average.

I personally adjust my windage and elevation for every shot I take. It takes no longer (don't want to argue this next) than counting your lines and doing holdoffs. I zero at 100 and understand my numbers up to 1000. I also have tactical turret knobs on my scopes, which allows for this. I am also in Texas, so if I need mittens, I am staying home. If my hunting setup lets me know I will make a 1-300 yard shot, I have my numbers ready. If I am at the range and will shoot 500/750/1000 I will have those numbers ready.

Unlike Brian P. (and like Scorch), I feel that there are very few who read this post who can actually shoot sub-MOA.

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Old December 19, 2012, 02:15 PM   #96
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I guess I have to accept the assertion that many, if not most, people can't consistently shoot under MOA. It's awfully hard for me to believe and it runs contrary to my experience but the sum total of folks who say otherwise far out weighs my experience. Very hard to imagine that people can shoot that poorly though. MOA is easy. Even at 300 or 400 it's relatively easy. 100 is just... man, it almost takes more effort to NOT shoot MOA at 100.
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Old December 19, 2012, 04:38 PM   #97
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"many, if not most, people can't consistently shoot under MOA"

I have 100s of hours at the local no frills public range on the 100 yard line.... It is my opinion that >50% of the folks that I have sat beside on the rifle range (mostly hunter types with front bag and no rear bag) would be unable to hit an 8.5x11 sheet of paper 5 times in a row at 100 yards..... no exaggeration. I am looked at like some sort of freak when I staple on the target in my "December 17, 2012 05:53 PM" post. I have also been asked to shoot groups with other peoples rifles to see if I can find "what is wrong with their rifle".... to sheepishly respond "looks fine to me". Don't underestimate how poorly most folks shoot. I just hope many of these shooters do not try to take an animal beyond 50 - 100 yards.

It is a very different scene on the long range. At Best Of The West (Liberty Hill, TX), You need to qualify at 500 yards in order to use the longer distances. I have only run into 1-2 folks in the last year that did not know their stuff. Most everyone can tell you their velocity standard deviation, elevation, windage, BC, height over bore, current powder weight, primer type, etc....
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Old December 19, 2012, 05:10 PM   #98
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Credibility is suspect

whenever I hear that "boast." Some of my rifles are indeed capable of really good accuracy. Typically I obtain that accuracy at 200 yards or so, after the bullet has gone to sleep and before wind becomes a factor, if on a calm day.

I am especially suspect of such a statement when it is attributed to a FAL or most any "shell shucker" semi automatic, but that doesn't mean it isn't true... I have obtained several sub minute groups from my PTR91, but I have also obtained groups not near so good.

Too, it takes someone with extensive experience to shoot any rifle that well, and the stars have to line up just right, IME.

Sorta like guys you meet from the military... everybody was a sniper, nobody was a cook, a truck driver, a clerk, a radioman or a mechanic. I take those claims with a grain of salt too.

I'm not about to call anybody a liar, however, unless their story is internally inconsistent. It is your obligation to tell the truth, and my choice whether to believe what you say.

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Old December 19, 2012, 05:33 PM   #99
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you could shoot all the way around a penny with anything smaller than a .308 and still be 1 MOA. Even with a .308, you could shoot all the way around a penny, get a group of 1.058 and your only .011 larger than 1MOA.
I vote this to be the standard from this day forth So let it be writen , so let it be done

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Old December 19, 2012, 06:21 PM   #100
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I like that target in post # 87, (howaboutheiris) and I wouldn't mind taking a swinging stab at that doughnut.
Scorch can't believe you fellas are still arguing this "moa all day" thing, I concur. I bet there are more rifles than shooters on this forum that could do it.
Like I said, I have rifles that I know will shoot this repeatable, however I have no likely way to prove it, as most of you that has replied to this thread. And if it were a perfect world, I'd gather up you repeat posters and take you to the range to see if your salt is salt. It's easy enough for most to set behind this keyboard and talk the talk, and I know in my heart there is a few of you fellas that would fill the bill, however some here, that haven't proved theirselves with their rifles enough to know squat about what it takes to even shoot all day let alone be "moa perfect".
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