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Old December 9, 2012, 10:53 AM   #51
pat701
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This was a very interesting discussion. From what i got out of it was that the rotating barrels in theory should/could be more accurate then locked barrels. Also that there should be less felt recoil in the rotatory barrels. In 45ACP would you be able to feel the decrease in recoil in the rotating barrels apposed to the fixed barrel?

Last edited by pat701; December 9, 2012 at 10:58 AM.
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Old December 9, 2012, 02:14 PM   #52
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Would you be able to feel the difference in recoil between a rotating and tilting barrel .45? Possibly, but I doubt it.

In straight math terms, two pistols, of the same weight, firing the same round will have the same recoil. XX ft/lbs.

Now, the difference in the feel of the recoil could be slight, or could be pronounced. Here's an example, (though not of the tilt vs rotate) the 9mm and the .45ACP in GI trim both have virtually identical muzzle energy, some 368ft/lbs (or so). SO, physics says their recoil energy must also be virtually identical. However, a great many people claim they can feel a noticable difference in the recoil.

I am one of those. In MY hands, both guns have about the same amount or muzzle flip, and "recoil" but, the 9mm feels "snappier" or "faster" recoiling than the .45. It all a matter of perception, not math.

As to accuracy? Decide first, which definition of accuracy you want to discuss, the sheer mechanical accuracy of the gun/ammo combination, or accuracy, as it refers to the shooter being able to use the mechanical accuracy of the gun. They are two quite different things.

In theory, the rotating barrel gun is more "accuracte" than a tilt barrel one, but in practical terms, that's not a given. It comes down to how well the shooter can be "repeatable" with the entire gun/ammo package.

Poor sights, and/or a poor trigger can make the use of a mechanically accurate gun much more difficult. And mechanical accuracy is of little value, if it cannot be utilized by the shooter.

I have the Colt Govt Model that my Dad got in the early 70s. It was used then, and had an accuracy job done on it back sometime in the late 60s. That gun, in my hands, using my reloads will put 5 shots in one ragged hole at 25yds. Even though its a "crappy 1911", and its tilt barrel system is "automatically less accurate", I don't see how anyone could complain it doesn't shoot well.

I have also had 1911A1s that were just barely minute-of-man accurate (4-5in groups) at that same distance. Not new guns, but Gi issue ones, which had seen lots of wear. Still quite servicable, but not tackdrivers.

I have guns with fixed barrels, tilting barrels, and barrels that move straight back and forth. For me, its more than just the lockup system that makes it accurate in my hands, and really for me, that's all that counts.
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Old December 10, 2012, 08:06 PM   #53
Walt Sherrill
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As I stated...and this is fact: Accuracy is more dependent upon the shooter than the weapon itself...agree?
Agree? Not really, although I would agree that some shooters will get closer to a gun's potential than other shooters. If that was NOT the case, there would be no need for the Ransom Rest evaluations, which assess the innate mechanical accuracy of a given steel-framed weapon.

Even the best shooter can't take a horrible gun and turn it into a tack-driver. On the other hand -- and it's probably your point -- a horrible shooter isn't going to get "tack-driver" performance out of the best gun.

That said, it seems to me that a well-designed and manufactured handgun, made with attention paid to proper fitting and tolerances, should shoot pretty well, regardless of the barrel-locking method -- as long as the sights and barrel generally end up together after each shot -- if the shooter uses the sights!.

A rotating barrel system may not move as much vertically during the firing cycle as a tilting barrel design, but it does rotate, and that rotation can also cause changes in a bullet's point of impact if that barrel isn't perfectly aligned throughout it firing cycle. It's moving in both cases, before the bullet has left the barrel. Will the rotating barrel system go as much awry? I don't know. Will a rotating barrel system lock up with greater consistency than a tilting barrel system? I don't know.

I'd like to see some Ransom Rest tests of the rotating barrel systems, to see how they perform -- and show us whether theory and reality coincide. Seems like they SHOULD, but I've never seen that put to a test.

.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; December 11, 2012 at 11:01 AM.
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Old December 11, 2012, 12:12 PM   #54
Crankgrinder
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The beretta storm i have is more accurate for me than my g19, but not by much. It flips less too, but its also heavier. Most people who shoot one who mention its softness forget that it is heavy for a polymer gun thus kciks less than most other polys. An all steel cz75 is among the softest feeling pistols ive shot. accuracy is only affected by the consistency of where it locks up again each time, not how it does this so i dont see how one can be better than the other. i dont care for a flopping barrel in theory although ive never had a problem with ones accuracy that couldnt be traced back to me in some way. As far as wearing one out i dont know anybody whose worn out many guns, and i sure dont know one whose worn out a cougar or a storm or a glock for that matter.
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