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Old December 10, 2012, 01:51 AM   #26
BIG P
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I take it with a grain of salt,Aint never seen anyone do it.Shoot I dont no many that can afford to. Guess it could happen.I know mine will shoot MO,DEER most all day.
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Old December 10, 2012, 08:07 AM   #27
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I have three rifles that I have just tweaked enough tp get less than 1MOA.
All three have handloads designed for them, a couple have multiple loads that they will shoot under moa easily.
I cant shoot moa, offhand at 100 yds, morelike two moa.
Off a rest my rifles are nice shooters for the money, and all three are merely hunting rifles shooting only hunting bullets.

Id take that bet, if there was one, that my rifles will shoot under moa all day.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:09 AM   #28
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When I hear someone say "all day long", I immediately recognize that that individual may be giving a heartfelt impression of his rifle's performance but he doesn't have any real data on which his statement is based. It could mean his rifle performs with a particular best load, or when the shooter is having a good day, or it could be just an idle boast.
In any case, the statement is next to worthless.

Even the best shooting rifles have some ammos and some hand loads that they don't shoot well. I would bet someone could find a load and a bullet type that even the best rifle wouldn't shoot under 1 MOA on average.
In addition, even the best shooters can have an off day or let a couple of rounds mess up a good group. Those groups count when you speak about 'all day long".

So unless the speaker clearly qualifies the conditions and limits that apply to his statement, "all day long" doesn't work for me.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:14 AM   #29
Brian Pfleuger
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What does a load that the rifle doesn't shoot as well have to do with anything? That doesn't even make sense. That's WHY we handload, sort brass, neck turn, check runout, buy expensive dies....

OF COURSE, the rifle doesn't shoot any round you put in it to less than MOA.

If that were the qualification for a sub-MOA rifle, there wouldn't be a single one in existence.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:44 AM   #30
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When I hear someone say that I think they are giving their impression of the rifle and that while they may be spending an entire day at the range, but they are most certainly shooting other guns and letting the rifle cool and so forth.

This is not necessarily a lie, but spoken from a practical position and not a literal one.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:53 AM   #31
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Brian,

My point was very much the same as yours but from a different perspective.
I would suspect that most people take the "under 1 MOA all day long" as a boast intended to give the impression that all the groups will always be under 1 MOA.

Based upon your posts over the years, I recognize that you have a very wide range of experience and you naturally include that knowledge in your interpretation of the " all day long" statement. I'm not sure everyone does.

I was trying to say that even a sub-MOA rifle doesn't shoot necessarily sub-MOA all day long and, almost guaranteed, doesn't shoot every load the same.
That is indeed why we hand load and tune loads for performance.

A sub-MOA achieves that 'on average' and even within a particular load there can be anomalies.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:58 AM   #32
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I think we are over analizing this statement. We as a group can read between the lines here. Im sure he meant shoot 5 or 6 rounds and cool between groups. This is a very easy statement to believe. I have many rifles that will do that. In fact I don't have one that won't do that. I would think at some point in time the barrel will need to be cleaned to maintain the accuracy level. 100 yards and 1 inch groups is not by any means impressive at all.
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Old December 10, 2012, 10:01 AM   #33
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Given how many decades I've been load-testing and doing sight-ins from my benchrest, I take it for granted that I can hold a rifle to its best performance almost all the time. I have bad days, of course, but not very many.

I've had some rifles which were not at all picky about what load would be very much tight-group. Others? There was some frustration in finally finding "the load".

"All day long", most likely, just means "reliably". That is, you go out, shoot a group, and it makes your heart all warm and runny. Good. You go out again and again you get that tight group. Same for a day/week/month later.

Away from competition, I don't really see why somebody would spend all day shooting group after group after group. I figure, go shoot a coyote or something.
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Old December 10, 2012, 11:12 AM   #34
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I saw an old man (80+) shoot probably 15 <0.25" groups in a row at 50 yards with a Winchester M52 with a matching vintage Unertl scope. I asked him why he doesn't shoot in benchrest competition and he almost yelled at me... Something like,"I don't have time to be where someone else wants me to be, I do things on my own schedule!" Now that's "ALL DAY LONG" performance! Pretty cool. If only my centerfire rifles could be that good!

When I shoot 3 slow 5-shot groups in a row with a particular rifle at 100 yards and they are all sub-MOA I think I can comfortably say,"This is a sub-MOA rifle". That rarely happens, but it does happen with 2 or 3 of my rifles, on occasion. I have never used the phrase,"All day long" describing the accuracy of my guns. In fact, I always raise an eyebrow when I here that and think of the guy with a Mosin Nagant with a Walmart scope that is supposedly a 1/4"MOA shooter, "All day long".
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Old December 10, 2012, 07:33 PM   #35
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When the manufacturer says the RIFLE will shoot MOA all day long, they don't mean in any shooters hands. They mean from a lead sled or at least a competent shooter.
They don't mean with WWB, they mean with Hornady match ammunition.


There are a whole lot of rifles designs being produced that will shoot sub MOA 3 shot groups at a very high repeatability from a rest. That is the one measure I give modern production an edge over older production. Good thing shooting subMOA isn;t high on the list for me with most rifles. Rests are too heavy to carry in the woods anyways.
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Old December 10, 2012, 08:33 PM   #36
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If I build a big game hunting rifle that is 1 moa 5 shots all day long, I built it too heavy.

1 moa average 3 shots is as heavy as I want to build them.

But the varmint rifles I would like at .5 moa 5 shots.
Heavy gun, light bullet.
The trouble is, when and where is the wind low enough to test that?
If I get inland away from the ocean a hundred miles, and then find flat country, and then shoot at sun up.

I do go there and do that, but once or twice a year. Near Seattle with ranges opening at noon, i can count on 6 mph gusty winds.
No one, not even really good rifles cleaned every 15 shots, can do 1 moa all day long in that wind.

I know a number of guys that test rifles at 50 yards, to reduce the effect of the wind.
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Old December 10, 2012, 08:49 PM   #37
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For clarification: All day long is certainly a misused term. In our case, our .308 will shoot .5 MOA out to 400 yards conditions permitting. The rifle is more than capable, up to the shooter and the wind. If the conditions are good, yes on most occasions we can maintain that. My 14 year old son is a better shot than I am and we both have done around 2" 5 round groups as 400 yards.

We shoot Black Hills 168 or 175g and shoot off a bipod and sand bag. Here is the rifle, range and representative target.





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Old December 10, 2012, 09:16 PM   #38
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Tempest- What brand rifle is that..One sweet looking unit there.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:46 PM   #39
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Sorry Tempest I love that rifle so I'm steeling your thunder .

It is a Savage Model: 10/110 BA , 24" barrel and 13.4 lbs not including the scope or bi-pod
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Old December 10, 2012, 10:11 PM   #40
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How many rounds are you talking about?

Are you talking about 3, 5, or 10 shot groups? I know I read a lot about everyone shooting 1" moa but frankly seldom see anyone shooting that well at the range. I know I read an article where a military sniper using a lead sled shooting a bunch of different new hunting rifles using premium ammo did not consistently shoot 1" moa with them. He did about half of them to MOA and the others were only a little more than that but he was a mil sniper. It showed me that an inch and a half at 100yds is pretty good shooting. If you are talking about only 3 shots I think that is more doable but when you go to 5 and then 10 shot groups 1" MOA is much more difficult.
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Old December 10, 2012, 11:00 PM   #41
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All day long huh? I have heard that before but what they actually meant was a five round group. Very short day if you ask me. If a person can load/select their ammo to ensure that the velocity is less than a 25 fps std dev, guess the wind and hold consistently all the time with few or zero flyers then they can claim all day long.

I have witnessed good shooting in the past; such as a 1.9 inch group at 550 yards with moderate wind. That shooter never claimed to be able to shoot 1 moa all the time. When I see someone put thirty rounds into a 1 moa group, then I will not roll my eyes at the phrase, "all day long".

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Old December 11, 2012, 06:20 AM   #42
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ive had a few sporter weight rifles that were true moa guns but there rare. Most guys who claim to have them fired one or two 1/2 inch 3 shots groups with the majority being alot bigger and just claim to have a tack driver. A moa gun to me anyway is one that will shoot moa in any weather and do it shooting a 5 shot group into an inch and a half EVERY time i have it at the range and there rare. I kind of relate it to this. We were at camp last week and talking trucks and gas milage. I told my dad my silverado will get 17mpg average. He said his dakota got 27 and he could prove it because driving on a flat at 55 mph his gas mileage guage said so. One 1/2 inch group proves nothing but that the stars were aligned that day.
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Old December 11, 2012, 09:29 AM   #43
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I've owned 4 bolt action centerfire rifles, each would consistently do MOA or better. That's using either a bipod or front bag, no rear bag and me behind the trigger. What those guns would be capable if they were locked up tighter and/or had a better shooter would probably amaze me let alone the OP. Personally I feel that a bolt action rifle that won't do MOA with tested loads to be on the verge of being broken.
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Old December 11, 2012, 09:54 AM   #44
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All the MOA shooters here should fire a 10 shot group. Shoot it in a minute or two. The faster you can get back on target and squeeze off an accurate shot the better. Shoot ten, ten shots groups like that over a day, or a few days. Now average them. If the don't average one MOA or less, you don't have a MOA rifle.

Shooting one three, or five shot group that measures a MOA or less, proves very little. Other than the rifle is acceptable for hunting.
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Old December 11, 2012, 09:59 AM   #45
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45 View Post
All the MOA shooters here should fire a 10 shot group. Shoot it in a minute or two. The faster you can get back on target and squeeze off an accurate shot the better. Shoot ten, ten shots groups like that over a day, or a few days. Now average them. If the don't average one MOA or less, you don't have a MOA rifle.

Shooting one three, or five shot group that measures a MOA or less, proves very little. Other than the rifle is acceptable for hunting.
What makes your rules the standard?

First time I've heard a time limit on groups.
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Old December 11, 2012, 10:17 AM   #46
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How long do you take to shoot a ten shot group?

Anyway, take 30 min or an hour Brian, if thats what you need. The most important part is that you shoot ten shot groups and average them.
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Old December 11, 2012, 10:20 AM   #47
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Quote:
Most guys who claim to have them fired one or two 1/2 inch 3 shots groups with the majority being alot bigger and just claim to have a tack driver. A moa gun to me anyway is one that will shoot moa in any weather and do it shooting a 5 shot group into an inch and a half EVERY time i have it at the range and there rare.
I may not understand the term 1 MOA rifle . It souds like some are saying if a person can't shoot 1 MOA the rifle is not a MOA shooter .. Yes I do not shoot sub MOA all the time with my American but I have done it many times . That tells me my gun is a MOA gun and I'm not .
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Old December 11, 2012, 11:10 AM   #48
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Quote:
All the MOA shooters here should fire a 10 shot group. Shoot it in a minute or two. The faster you can get back on target and squeeze off an accurate shot the better. Shoot ten, ten shots groups like that over a day, or a few days. Now average them. If the don't average one MOA or less, you don't have a MOA rifle.

Shooting one three, or five shot group that measures a MOA or less, proves very little. Other than the rifle is acceptable for hunting.
I've never, and I mean never, heard of anyone defining MOA under your terms. I've seen/heard arguements for 2 shot, 3 shot and 5 shot groups and debates over how many of those groups it takes to define MOA but 10 - 10 shot strings is so far above any accepted proof of MOA it's not even funny. You want the best test for a gun/load/marksman? One shot, cold bore. Nothing else should really matter. 10-10 shots strings = irrelevent.
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Old December 11, 2012, 11:17 AM   #49
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I must be a loser. I've always had to work my ass off to get a rifle to hold three shots inside an inch at 100 yards. I've got two now that with the right ammunition, a still day, a good bench, sandbags and me not having had too much coffee will usually do that for me. They're both hunting rifles, one is an M77RL in .270, the other is a 77/22 in .22 WMR. They're both very picky about the right ammunition.
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Old December 11, 2012, 11:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
All the MOA shooters here should fire a 10 shot group. Shoot it in a minute or two. The faster you can get back on target and squeeze off an accurate shot the better. Shoot ten, ten shots groups like that over a day, or a few days. Now average them. If the don't average one MOA or less, you don't have a MOA rifle.

Shooting one three, or five shot group that measures a MOA or less, proves very little. Other than the rifle is acceptable for hunting.

This is good stuff. You're messing with us, right? 3-shot groups can mean just as much as 10 shot groups if you shoot enough of them. If you shoot 20 3-shot groups and the bullets all land in the same place relative to POA, then it's the same as shooting 6 10-shot groups with all the bullets landing in the same place relative to POA. Now, what rifle, heavy barrel or not can shoot 10-consecutive shots in a minute without the barrel heating to branding iron levels?

If you shoot 3 Sub-MOA 5-shot groups in a row, that's the same as shooting a 15-shot Sub-MOA group. Happens more often than some people in this thread think even with sporter rifles. I see guys at the range shooting heavy bolt-action rifles into 3/4"-1" 5-shot groups at 200 yards with regularity. I have a .243 that I can easily count on 1.5" groups at 200 yards. That's slow-fired 5-shot groups. Nothing special other than some painstaking work at the reloading bench.
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