The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 10, 2012, 10:30 PM   #1
Dr_2_B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: midwest
Posts: 497
Which center-fire rifle cartridge would you not trust for self defense?

This is more a thought question than a practical one... and may make for a little interesting discussion. It follows the premise that most rifles are sufficient for self defense.

So which (if any) center-fire rifle cartridge, fired through a rifle, would you not trust for self defense?
__________________
If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head.
- adapted from Francois Guisot (often wrongly attributed to Winston Churchill)

Last edited by Dr_2_B; December 10, 2012 at 11:31 PM.
Dr_2_B is offline  
Old December 10, 2012, 11:28 PM   #2
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,030
I'm not sure trust is the right word for this . I would trust them all if it's the only one I had .

Are you asking only caliber or the bullet/load of any catridge ?

I do see what your saying about how this could get interesting . For me and if I had a choice . I would not want any of the big calibers 50 , 338 , win mag , ultra mag . To big , to loud , to much recoil . I may not even want any long guns for SD . Maybe just a good pistol that can hold 13 or more rounds .
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Old December 10, 2012, 11:29 PM   #3
barnbwt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 705
Probably something too big or expensive to be shot effectively or frequently, respectively.

(this thread will indeed spark a lively discussion, I reckon...in before 5.7x28, then lock)
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things."
-- Alex Rosewater
barnbwt is offline  
Old December 10, 2012, 11:33 PM   #4
Dr_2_B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: midwest
Posts: 497
Quote:
Are you asking only caliber or the bullet/load of any catridge ?
I'm really asking the question in the most generic sense... without reference to any particular loadings.
__________________
If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head.
- adapted from Francois Guisot (often wrongly attributed to Winston Churchill)
Dr_2_B is offline  
Old December 10, 2012, 11:41 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
The lowliest of rifles is more powerful than most any handgun that most of us would carry on a daily basis.

I really can't think of a rifle that I "would not trust" for self-defense.

If I had my Ruger 10/22 I'd be satisfied that I could do the job.

In terms of platform, I'd much prefer a semi-auto to a bolt action but about any cartridge would do the job.

No doubt, there's some esoteric cartridges out there that most people have never heard of but, in relatively common use, they'll all do the job.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 10, 2012, 11:49 PM   #6
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 775
The old 32-20 cartridge is a bit of a light weight in its original loading. 218 bee and 22 hornet are also a bit light. 204 ruger would seem marginal to me also. Any of the .17 caliber cartridges.

Any service-size handgun cartridge coming out of a carbine/rifle length barrel is going to be a good self defense choice. 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 mag, 45 ACP, 44-40, etc...
btmj is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:25 AM   #7
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,817
Not one.

Of course, I also think 9mm is sufficient.
Even 7.62 Nagant.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:46 AM   #8
uradaisyifudo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2012
Location: idaho
Posts: 134
There is not a rifle cartridge i'd want to be on the other side of, but I'd think the less effective calibers lie at the extremes, the. 17 or the big buffalo bore variations. I agree a ruger 10/22 would be quite effective.
uradaisyifudo is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:47 AM   #9
Kiwi Hunter
Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Posts: 76
I wouldn't feel great holding a .17 - even though I have seen them turn bunnies, hares and goats into Jello on many occasions
Kiwi Hunter is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 08:43 AM   #10
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
A .204Ruger has about 3 1/2 times more energy than a 9mm.

If I could pick up a .204 AR15 or a 9mm anything, I'd pick the .204 every single time.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 09:28 AM   #11
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,817
True the 204 Ruger has more energy, but how much of that energy is going to be transferred to target? For varminting at long ranges you use up a good bit getting there.

At 100 yards the 204 is way ahead of the 9mm, especially when you factor in adjusting for drop, but inside even 20 yards how much of that energy is just going out the back of the target? I am guessing a lot no matter what bullet is used.

With the 9mm almost all of it can be delivered to target with good ammo.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 09:30 AM   #12
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,475
Quote:
which (if any) center-fire rifle cartridge, fired through a rifle, would you not trust for self defense?
Just about any of them. I'd probably grab an AR, since its light and fast handling.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 09:56 AM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062 View Post
True the 204 Ruger has more energy, but how much of that energy is going to be transferred to target? For varminting at long ranges you use up a good bit getting there.

At 100 yards the 204 is way ahead of the 9mm, especially when you factor in adjusting for drop, but inside even 20 yards how much of that energy is just going out the back of the target? I am guessing a lot no matter what bullet is used.

With the 9mm almost all of it can be delivered to target with good ammo.

If you'd ever seen what a .204 does to woodchucks at 20 yards, you wouldn't doubt the effect it would have on a person.

It'll blow a 3" exit hole in a coyote at 175 yards.

The amazing thing is that it might not even exit a woodchuck at 40 yards. The innards are jello though.

I'd take a .204 over a 9mm every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not just 9mm either. 40SW, 45acp, 10mm, 357sig or Mag.

Handguns SUCK. We only carry them because they're small and convenient.

There are hardly any situations where, if I needed to defend myself and I had a semiauto rifle of any caliber and a semiauto handgun of any caliber, I'd choose the handgun.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 10:26 AM   #14
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 775
Brian,

Would you consider 40 - 45 grain 204 ruger to be roughly equivalent to 55 - 64 grain 223 ?
btmj is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 10:29 AM   #15
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Equivalent in what way?
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 11:19 AM   #16
boattale
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 118
I'd not ever choose a .17 for that purpose. Anything else would make me feel ten times better.
__________________
Its all downhill from here. Except the parts that are uphill.
boattale is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:36 PM   #17
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,453
If my 6920 is good enough for the boys in blue, and a street legal version of what Uncle Sam hands out, it's hard to argue. Though I doubt I'd bother with steel penetrator tips...
JimDandy is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:56 PM   #18
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 775
Brian,

Sorry, it was a cryptic question... I was wondering if, in your experience with the 204 Ruger, do you consider it to have roughly equivalent wounding power to 223 (moderate weight 223 projectiles, not the really heavy stuff) ?

Kinetic energy levels are about the same, but the 223 projectile as 20% more cross sectional area, and a 62 grain bullet is 37% more massive than a 45 grain bullet... but the proof is in the real world performance on animal flesh.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but from your description of coyote kills, it sounds like 204 Ruger IS comparable to 223. But I will let you say that...

Last edited by btmj; December 11, 2012 at 01:02 PM.
btmj is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 01:33 PM   #19
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I've never even fired a 223 rifle. I always thought the cartridge was a bit too "generic" for my tastes. I like "weird" ones. That's why I bought the 204 when it first came out. It's not unusual anymore but it was then.

I've killed and seen killed a ton of woodchucks with the 204 and 22-250 though. For the most part, they do about the same damage, with a slight edge to the 22-250, depending on the shot placement. Many times, you'd never know the difference.

Being that the 223 is sort of like a 22 caliber .204, I assume it would be very similar in its effect. Almost like the illegitimate love child of a .204 and a .22-250
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 04:10 PM   #20
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 559
Probably off-topic: I would not trust any Iranian 1950's ammo for self defense, such as the 30-06 and the 8mm --- same goes for Yugo 8mm machine gun ammo; that have deep set primers.

I was at the range last Sunday...some guy was shooting corrosive Iranian 30-06, in his M-1 Garand. Besides misfires...the Garand emitted a huge flash signature. Mark Hartman, of James River Armory,{who test-fires his rifles there}, was shocked and agast that that the guy was shooting corrosive in his Garand; so much that he gave the guy some decent 30-06 ammo too shoot.

Last edited by Erno86; December 11, 2012 at 04:22 PM.
Erno86 is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 05:05 PM   #21
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,263
Perhaps one of those most enimic current rifle cartridges is the 30 cal carbine, still has plenty of power for me and countless others who were on the wrong end in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. 110 gr bullet at 1900 fps, I love this cartridge/rifle (m1) combo.
1stmar is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 05:24 PM   #22
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 559
1stMar --- Yea...agreed. But at what approx. distance, did the 30 cal. carbine bullets, bounce off the coats of the attacking North Korean hordes, during the Korean War?
Erno86 is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 05:30 PM   #23
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,263
Given this is about self defense I'm figuring distances less then 25 yards for sure, likely less then 10ft. I don't see it bouncing off at at self defense distances. It certainly would not be my first choice for combat. :-))
1stmar is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 05:52 PM   #24
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,095
IMHO it's more a matter of the firearm than the cartridge. My trusty old M1888 45-70 has pleny of knock down power but against an urban horde I'd prefer something with more magazine capacity and easier reloading.
I have read the stories of the M1 Carbine round failing in Korea, some account said the Red Chinese were using body armor, others said it was the thick padding of their winter uniforms. Having Seen the Elephant myself, I wonder how much of the problem was failures of the ammunition vs. an exhausted and groggy and sleep deprived GI (OK, Marine if you prefer) trying to repel a screaming horde at 0100 in 20 degree weather who THINKS he's hitting his targets and can't understand why they won't go down.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 06:16 PM   #25
coyota1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 661
At close to 1000 ft lbs the 30 carbine is ideal for defense purposes. That's what it was designed for. Recoil is mild, power is plenty, recovery time is good. You can load with 5, 15, and 30 round mags which would give you plenty of fire power.
coyota1 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12357 seconds with 10 queries