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Old December 5, 2012, 01:01 PM   #26
Tom Servo
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There's a big difference between "people like you ought to be shot" and "I'm going to shoot you." The former is a tactless opinion; the latter is reason for very real concern.

I'd have walked away given the choice. That said, we don't know what happened, so all we can do is speculate.
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Old December 5, 2012, 01:31 PM   #27
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From what I could tell from the story, it was just another jump on the anti-gun bandwagon that I am seeing so much of these days in the "news media".
There wasn't enough real info to do anything but speculate about it.
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Old December 5, 2012, 01:38 PM   #28
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@HiBC, Abq is not that bad a place, it has its problems just like any other city, but its not even close to Memphis where I used to live. I'd walk around most places in Abq without too much concern, Memphis on the other hand...

@MLeake If I remember my CHL class correctly, Williams may have a bit of an issue with this. There is of course not enough information, but I don't think there was enough of a threat posed to cover use of the gun like that.
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Old December 5, 2012, 01:47 PM   #29
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I happend on this

http://www.practicaltacticaltraining...-use-of-force/



NM Has a flow chart..why doesn't Illinois or Florida get a cool flow chart..

the PDF is easier to view though

http://www.practicaltacticaltraining...-Flowchart.pdf

Looks like based on the information the now defendant would have to prove he was at risk of "Great Bodily Harm"
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Old December 5, 2012, 07:58 PM   #30
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aQ Nm is a dangerous place. There is significant gang violence. If a big dude suggested anything about shooting me I think I would pull. Tell him to leave and when he started walking away i would call 911 report the incident.

Williams is screwed.
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Old December 5, 2012, 10:31 PM   #31
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Hal, I haven't read anything further about the snatcher. If he has been apprehended, as far as I know, he's been arrested for some other crime.

Nate45, I think you were the one who said we can assume the police knew what they were doing when they made the arrest, and will be fair: That may be, but how many trainers have told us to expect to be arrested if we use a gun, period? EVERY trainer I know says to expect that. The bias is to make an arrest, not to simply write a report, except in states that prohibit arrests unless strong prima facia evidence exists that deadly force, or the threat of deadly force, were unjustified. I don't know if NM is one of those states. I do know that within gun-friendly NM, Albuequerque and Santa Fe are not considered gun-friendly; kind of like Denver and Boulder as opposed to Colorado, Atlanta as opposed to Georgia, or Philly as opposed to Pennsylvania.

Patriot86, if Williams is of similar age to Rodriguez, of similar size to Rodriguez, and has no infirmities that have not yet been reported, he is probably in trouble. If a jury decides Williams could have safely retreated, even if any of the above conditions were not true, he could still be in trouble.

We don't know enough about either man; we don't know if Williams could reasonably have retreated without harm.

I do wish we could do experiments, from time to time, with some of the more strident folk in the forum. Such as:

1) You try to retreat to your car, while I (or one of my larger friends, if need be) decide not to let you get into the car; you should wear body armor and helmet, so the door won't be as likely to damage your body parts when I kick or body slam it shut on you;

2) You lie on the ground, and let me (or one of my larger friends, if need be) get on top of you and start slamming your head into the ground; see how many impacts you take before you decide that, yep, you'd draw and shoot even though I am not (or my large friend is not) armed;

3) You let me surprise you, and get whatever lock I choose; then, see if you can draw and pepper spray me, without pepper spraying yourself. (Good odds you won't be able to draw, and good odds you will spray both of us if you do.)

My point being, lots of people focus on armed vs unarmed, and there is a reason that they do; lots of people focus on retreat, and there's a reason that they do. But totality of situations can be vastly different than what they seem on the surface, and the real risks that roil beneath might really unnerve people if they were to encounter them firsthand.

And, like I said, most people (and most courts) would never allow such experiments. Most people really do not want their eyes opened as to what another human could do to them, in minimal time.
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Old December 5, 2012, 10:35 PM   #32
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I would call that an over reaction and one of the reasons people don't like gun owners.
Copied from post #2

Gun owner--yes he was. Id put him in the sameclass as those gangsta NFLers that Bob Costa was talking about.
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Old December 5, 2012, 10:44 PM   #33
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langenc, have you read a further article or report that filled in the blanks some of us are asking about?

The odds are Williams screwed up. However, there are a number of possible factors that could yet turn up that would change our take on the situation. I think it's pretty foolish for so many of our members to dogpile on the guy without facts present, as it could be very embarrassing if the guy turns out to be:

significantly smaller than Rodriguez;

suffering from some medical condition or infirmity;

etc.

One of the legal rules that has bitten many a belligerent is the concept that one takes his victim how one finds him.

In other words, if you pick a fight at a bar, and the guy you punch turns out to be on a pacemaker, and his fall to the floor screws it up, and he dies - you just committed murder. It doesn't matter that the vast majority of other people would not have been badly hurt, all that matters is that you started the altercation with the guy who had a serious heart condition, and that he died.

What is reasonably likely to be deadly to my wife's 105lb cousin is not necessarily likely to be deadly to me. Force that might overwhelm me is less likely to overwhelm a friend of mine who wrestled all through school, in college, and post grad, who is still a gym rat, and who weighs 260 or so.

In the example of the guy with the pacemaker, he might make a strong argument for drawing on you when you came at him. (Edit: Even though, to all those present, it might not look reasonable at the time, the odds are they would find it very reasonable when they learned of his condition.)

Like I noted earlier, too, the article doesn't describe Williams' knives, except for the neck knife.

A lot of the time, at home, I'm likely to have a handgun; a rift folding knife; a leatherman skeletool; and possibly a small knife that I use for cleaning carbon of an AR's bolt, or my larger leatherman, depending on what I'm doing. Described that way, I don't think it sounds menacing, unhinged, nor mall ninja-esque.

But somebody could accurately (if incompletely) write that I had a gun and three knives!!
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:54 PM   #34
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@ MLeake I was merely speaking on the encounter and not the individuals sizes or skill sets. I understand those with different skill sets react different and depending on the totality of the circumstances their course of action would be justified. I was just commenting on the situation, and circumstances surrounding the reason the guy pulled the gun on the other guy.
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Old December 6, 2012, 05:31 PM   #35
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Williams did wrong and hopefully Rodriguez will be a little more careful about accosting strangers for political discussions. If Williams had been a hot head instead of just scared it would have been a lot different ending. Both men are dopes.
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
... Williams drew a .380 pistol and forced Rodriguez to the ground. Williams claimed he was restraining Rodriguez until the police arrived.

Read more: http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/...#ixzz2EL6KEYso
Idiot.

Patriot, I'll get that printed out on a wallet card and carry it around with me.
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:58 AM   #37
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First and foremost I don't trust the reporting. Not because of bias, more because reporters are lazy and often get there stories 3rd hand or at greater remove. Reporters also tend to write narratives rather than just relating the facts, that skews the reportage.
With that said...

Both guys are idiots.
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:35 AM   #38
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Purely based on the article and the little information it gives, here is my take.

Rodriguez:
Bumper stickers. They can be a bit crass and kitch and often designed to shock or inflame, but ultimately it was Williams' car and his freedom of expression, so live with it. We could argue that complaining about it is Rodriguez's own freedom of expression, but claiming someone along with others should "all be shot" is pretty dump and hardly a "view" worth expressing. He should have exercised a little more thought before opening his mouth. I think that was a bit of a reflex arc, "brain bypass" type remark. What was the point? Did he really think Williams would see the light and remove the sticker?

Williams:
It seems to me politics can be a pretty divisive issue in the States: lots of very strong opinions. Have a bumper sticker? Expect reactions. Secondly when someone comes out with a stupid reaction as above: ignore! Seems he too had a "brain bypass" moment when he let himself get embroiled. As for the gun... everyone on here seems to agree: if there is room to walk away from the situation, take it as drawing should be a last resort. He didn't.
Finally, I think one key to successful CC is only ever draw in fear (fear for yourself, fear for others), not in anger.
(the article doesn't say he drew in anger, but I don't buy the "I thought he had a gun/knife" If that were true, the last thing you'd do is close the gap by sitting on him...)

Conclusion: neither was a bastion of common sense, but of the two the gun-owner will be guiltier in the public's eyes, unfortunately.
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:28 AM   #39
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Just considering the facts in the story it is clear to me that the gunbearer over reacted.

Incidents like this make the general public think that all people that carry concealed are hotheads not to be trusted.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:31 PM   #40
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Considering the facts.... So, has anybody provided witness statements, or details of relative size, or presence or lack of health issues?

Or are we still missing those kinds of facts and just shooting from the hip?
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Old December 8, 2012, 12:38 AM   #41
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Not enough facts to pass judgement one way or the other. As a potential juror though, I tend to side with people who are minding their own business as opposed to those who get up in people's faces.

I don't put bumper stickers on my car, nor political signs in my yard. Neither action will change anyone's vote, and both are likely to invite vandalism or violence in one form or another. These are the times in which we live.
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Old December 8, 2012, 12:48 PM   #42
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Quote:
Considering the facts.... So, has anybody provided witness statements, or details of relative size, or presence or lack of health issues?
Haven't seen any new facts to warrant an opinion on this end.

Quote:
Or are we still missing those kinds of facts and just shooting from the hip?
I'd like to be able to say, " surprisingly, yes, people are still shooting from the hip without the facts to do so".

But I digress, it's not so surprising.... A shame...but not surprising.
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:29 PM   #43
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One consideration which should come into this equation is the fact that the Albuquerque PD is under a DOJ investigation for excessive use of force.

Because of that investigation they may be cracking down on marginal Self defense incidents.
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Old December 8, 2012, 08:36 PM   #44
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Not enough facts to pass judgement one way or the other. As a potential juror though, I tend to side with people who are minding their own business as opposed to those who get up in people's faces
this is why I could see charges dropped if the camera backs up his claim...
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Old December 9, 2012, 07:04 AM   #45
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With limited information, it's really hard to know what happened. If some approached me and started shoving me and threatening me, I might be tempted to pull my gun as well. Detaining him seems a bit much and so do the charges.

Overall, there just isn't enough information to make a judgement.
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Old December 9, 2012, 01:28 PM   #46
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sticky situation but krazyhorse is right to me. Some unknown hispanic guy just walks up to you in a reataurant and tells you you need to be shot? oh no no no. How is one supposed to assume he does not intend to do just that? He is already overreacting about a silly sticker enough to cause him to make a scene. Perhaps i could be wrong, but turning your back on a guy like that, and brushing him off seems to me a potentially grave mistake. I think the charges are a bit off myself. The aggressor in this situation as far as i know to me should at least be charged with public neusance.
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Old December 9, 2012, 02:08 PM   #47
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What I gathered from the article is that I was correct in my decision to not adorn my car with political bumper stickers.
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