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Old December 8, 2012, 11:28 AM   #26
Chainsawjames
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I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a .410 shotgun. If you had to defend your home with one, I'm sure the person on the other end would be injured severely. Especially at the close range in a home. Nothing wrong with a .410.
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Old December 8, 2012, 11:29 AM   #27
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Hogdogs: Reading posts #3 & #8 seem to hint toward the ineffectiveness of the .410. And posts from other contributors here and in the other thread infer that using a .410, even with buckshot, is tantamount to using a .25acp. I think your three experts (Newton, mass, & math) would disagree.

I'm also confused as to how a 20ga using #3 shot is so vastly superior to a .410 using 000 buckshot. Does the #3 shot somehow penetrate deeper? I'd really like to know....
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Old December 8, 2012, 11:38 AM   #28
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@ Hogdogs

Wouldn't you say though that due to your own use of the .410 it made you a better shot with other gauges later on due to the lessons learned with that bolt action scattergun?
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Old December 8, 2012, 11:59 AM   #29
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I make the argument the .410 is a supior home defense shotgun to the 12 gauge and i woullike to share why
Can't argue with you. Your well-researched () reasoning that the .410 has

1) equal power
2) less recoil
3) more pellets are not better

is why the police and military use .410's when they have to stop people.

(Oops, they use 12 gauges. Guess they'e just not as smart as you. Of course, you could do some additional research and try to discover WHY the other 99% of the world disagrees with you.)

I very seriously doubt if anyone would disagree with you if you claimed that a .410 was a viable home defense weapon (so is a .22), but to claim that it's superior to a 12 gauge and be wrong on 2 out of 3 of your reasons is pretty laughable.

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Old December 8, 2012, 12:00 PM   #30
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Seeker, I do not try to claim the .410 to be "ineffective"... I do try to simply point out the potential to be less than effective is higher than a gun with a much larger payload of equal size pellets...

Pfletch, Certainly, I give that gun most of the credit for my current abilities with not only the shotgun but all guns in general...

And the best part... This kid who bucked formal training in anything... I never knew how much I was actually learning until looking back as an adult...

Them ol' cajun rabbit doggers with their sweet looking shiny wingmasters and auto loaders both braggin' up my shooting as well as some whining (literally) that I was shooting all the dang rabbits was my first hint that I was actually a decent shooter...

Not to mention, I also was a better woodsman and hunter and could setup in their woods in a premium spot to get the rabbit before it ever got pushed to their party...

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Old December 8, 2012, 03:33 PM   #31
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To the O.P.

I wouldn't use the PDX-1 stuff personally.

Give the federal 3-inch #4 Buck a try.

As I have stated in my thread it gives a good pattern out of a full choke,and will do fine at close range without AS MUCH of an over punch worry.

*Notice I said AS MUCH*
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Old December 8, 2012, 03:35 PM   #32
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I too use a Circuit Judge for home defense. A small easy to move around with package is what I'm after. It has an 18 1/2 inch barrel and a pistol grip style stock. It's very easy to move around with this gun, I even took mine deer hunting this year. The sights are great and the overall feel of the gun is unmatched. It's also extremely light. I absolutely love this gun.
I was using 3 inch 000 in mine for home defense, but currently it's loaded with LeveRevolution .45 Colts.
For what it's worth, I also use an o/u 12 gauge with 3 inch #4, Winchester turkey loads.
Next idea is to use my Rifled Mossberg with mini slugs. Or maybe just Sabot Remington hollow points. They do incredible damage.
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Old December 8, 2012, 03:50 PM   #33
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I've actually shot people with shotguns, not that it seems to matter much to some folks here. You stick to that .410 and under ideal conditions it might work just fine. I've never shot anyone under ideal conditions so I'll stick to a 12 ga.
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
I make the argument the .410 is a supior home defense shotgun to the 12 gauge
Superior? Generally no. In certain circumstances where physical disability or limitations comes into play yes it could be.

Viable? Yes. There is certainly a plethora of less suitable options available in the world of firearms.

Quote:
From this point on, more is better takes over
Only to a point. Otherwise the 18 pellet 00Buck 3 1/2" magnums would be considered the new baseline. The previous baseline would have been the 15 pellet 00Buck 3" magnum.
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Old December 8, 2012, 09:03 PM   #35
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For hunting, with the exception of deer/elk, my father only uses a .410 mossberg bolt action. He uses it for squirrel, rabbit, dove, even duck (or did before the lead ban). I've witnessed him take a couple of turkey with it. He may very well be one of the most impressive shooters I've ever known. But on his side of the bed sits an old Stevens pump 12ga. You can't possibly believe that the .410 is the equal of the 12ga in effectiveness just becasue the pellets are moving at the same speed. 22 lR is shooting at the same speed as well, but mass matters.
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Old September 6, 2015, 03:12 PM   #36
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First I think there are a couple of important things that need to be pointed out.

Nobody should EVER.... EVER EVER plan to use anything less that #4 buck for self defense. .... EVER. Anything less only has enough penetration power(yes even at close distances) to cause extreme pain and possible shock. #4 Buck is the bare minimum. FBI testing recommends #1 buck or better to ensure adequate penetration against an assailant.

There is no singular ideal weapon for everyone for any purpose. The best weapon is the one you have AND are comfortable using.

If you take 2 identical shells, made by the same manufacturer, etc etc the only difference is one is .410 and the other is 12 gauge, you will get nearly identical penetration with both. The .410 uses less powder with less overall grains propelling identical sized projectiles at near the same velocity. This means each projectile will strike with the same force and have nearly identical penetration. This makes .410 shells ADEQUATE for home protection.

The ONLY difference is... you get more projectiles per shell with a 12 gauge. More projectiles means more impact force overall, and more wound cavities. In 12 gauge with 00 buck you will get roughly double the number projectiles over .410. Which means per shell, 12 gauge is a better home defense round.

Weapons capable of repeat shots is a vastly better weapon than a single shot weapon. The more shots before you have to reload means a lot greater capability. You can use multiple rounds per target, or engage multiple targets. A single shot 12 gauge is vastly superior to a .410 for that 1 shot, but after that, they are both just clubs for as long as it takes to reload them. In a pump action, they are both just clubs for as long as it takes to chamber a new round and prepare to fire. This is where personal capabilities makes the big difference. For all except the experienced 12 gauge users, a .410 can fire MUCH MUCH MUCH faster.

If you are the only person in your household who will be capable of self defense, then the best weapon is the largest you feel comfortable with. If you can't afford a self defense weapon for everyone in the household who will be capable of defense, then it's wiser to get a weapon that everyone feels comfortable using. If everyone is comfortable with a 12 gauge, you are set.

For me and my family, I will use my .410 saiga 15rd shotgun. Everyone is trained and comfortable using it except the 12 y/o(still a bit heavy for him). We all can fire 2-3 rounds on target faster than most with a 12 gauge pump can fire and be ready to fire again. Those 3 rounds provide more wound channels and stopping power than a single 12 gauge round by FAR.

If you don't own a shotgun and have never shot one, go to a range and rent a 12 gauge. If, after practicing for 30 min or so, you think you can/will take the time to get proficient with it, you might consider buying a 12 gauge. Otherwise, rent a .410 and become proficient in about an hour of practice. Get a pump with the largest ammo tube you can find over a single shot, and a RELIABLE semiauto shotgun over a pump. Never use an unreliable weapon for home defense.
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Old September 6, 2015, 05:30 PM   #37
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Old September 6, 2015, 05:46 PM   #38
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If the shooter does his part, across an HD typical room scenario, a 12 gauge is going to hit harder and put 2-4 times as many holes in the perp with EACH pull of the trigger over a .410, and twice as much lead weight (1/2 oz vs 1-1.25 oz). The kinetic energy transfer will be much, much greater. That's why the felt recoil is much greater on a 12 over a .410. It has more energy and mass.

Perps don't always come alone, and they often shoot back or jump on you. I want their ability to fight removed as quickly as possible to stop that threat. If you only get one shot (due to a failure, or being attacked yourself, taking cover, etc.) do you want to hit them with a 410 or 12?

The .410 may have more power than a handgun, but with a 9x19 I can dump 18 - 33 (glock super hi cap mags) rounds more accurately in a very rapid time, much faster than nearly any .410. And IF I'm not using the 12 ga, I'd go with the AK or AR with 30 round mags, easily reloadable. Few civilian self defense issues that can't be resolved with a full mag of 7.62x39...

If YOU want to use the .410 please go ahead. You're probably fine. But I'm in the camp that I have much better tools for ME and MY defense.
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Old September 6, 2015, 06:39 PM   #39
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I owned a Saiga 410 a few years ago. I would say its in a little different category than most 410's. I know for sure that if someone was shooting at me with one, I would not be shrugging and saying "it's only a 410".
That being said, I love my 12ga's.
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Old September 6, 2015, 07:31 PM   #40
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everyone can believe what they feel is correct. Choosing a HD weapon is a highly personal decison.
I won't be following the advice to arm myself with a .410, but others can feel free to if they wish.
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Old September 6, 2015, 09:01 PM   #41
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Three year old zombie thread back to life.

Any buckshot load is very much over rated. Buckshot is not allowed for deer hunting in many areas because it has been shown to be a poor performer. Most of the shotguns legendary stopping reputation is based on Hollywood BS. A 12 gauge would be low on my list of acceptable guns, a 410 is off the radar.
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Old September 6, 2015, 09:15 PM   #42
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Kephas78

"For me and my family, I will use my .410 saiga 15rd shotgun"

I second you on that. I have a Saiga .410 close by in the bedroom. With a 10 rounder already locked in and two more on deck, I don't feel under armed. I would like to suggest a Kushnapup stock. Does a marvelous job of shortening it, making it handier. Mine has a 20 inch barrel but is around 30 inches long or so. I can get back to you with the exact length if interested (I'm couching it right now!). Also eliminates that "forward" heaviness.
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Old September 6, 2015, 09:20 PM   #43
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zombie thread or not....

The use of BUCKSHOT loads on human targets has been shown to work VERY well.

LE for decades....Mil since WWI thru Vietnam, OO buck has been a good fight stopper inside 25yds or so. The fact it may not be a great hunting load is not relevant to its use as a SD load.

Inside its effective range (20-25 yds out of a cyl bore gun) #4, #1, OO or OOO buck all are effective. If you try to stretch the range out much further, the pattern density is poor and most pellets miss the tgt. Leading to less then steller results.

With Shots taken at reasonable distances the shotgun is a valid SD weapon
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Old September 6, 2015, 09:54 PM   #44
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PER identical projectile ie.. The force between a .410 and a 12 gauge is identical. a single pellet of 00 buck from a .410 with strike with the same force as a single pellet from a 12 gauge. The pellets weigh the same(mass) and are travelling at the same speed(speed)... Mass x speed = force. So, each projectile will have identical penetration. The felt recoil on a 12 gauge is more because it has more OVERALL force. That's why a .410 can't produce near as wide a pattern with shot(which is useful for bird hunting) or use near as heavy a slug(which is useful for larger game hunting). However, it is generally agreed that Buckshot is the best choice for home defense. If a single round of 12 gauge with 10 balls of 00 buckshot is the gold standard, then my three rounds with 15(5 each) balls(which have equal penetration) is easily just as lethal.

More importantly, a single round of .410 ammo is infinitely more lethal than the zero rounds of 12 gauge ammo which my other household members are willing to fire. I can't always be home to protect my family. I need a weapon that everyone can use.

Yes, Buckshot isn't allowed for deer hunting in many areas because it is a poor performer(inaccurate). That's also because people hunting deer usually take shots from greater than 15 yards... and aren't in their living room. If I did shoot a deer in my living room I would probably get cited for baiting them.
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Old September 7, 2015, 01:34 AM   #45
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Quote:
PER identical projectile ie.. The force between a .410 and a 12 gauge is identical. a single pellet of 00 buck from a .410 with strike with the same force as a single pellet from a 12 gauge. The pellets weigh the same(mass) and are travelling at the same speed(speed)... Mass x speed = force. So, each projectile will have identical penetration. The felt recoil on a 12 gauge is more because it has more OVERALL force.
.410 buckshot in 00 or 000 travels at about 800 fps velocity for standard buck. You can push it to perform at around 1300 fps with specialized ammo. The weight is 1/2 oz.

12 gauge 00 or 000 travels at about 1300 fps velocity for standard buck, or push it to perform at 1600+ fps. The weight is 1+ oz.

Given this FACT, the 12 gauge will be remarkably more potent and hit harder, all things equal. Each pellet will hit faster in a 12 gauge, and you'll have 2-3 times as many pellets and two or more times the overall mass entering the target. Individual pellets are not as important as the overall delivery of kinetic energy.

Quote:
Any buckshot load is very much over rated. Buckshot is not allowed for deer hunting in many areas because it has been shown to be a poor performer.
Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Deer hunting has little to do with home defense. By your rationale, my scoped .30-06 would make an excellent home defense rifle. Of course not. Deer hunting involves much different skills and weapons than home defense, and the goal is much different, the distances are vastly different, and deer hunting involves calculated aimed shots whereas home defense is very instant and reactionary against a human target.

The 12 gauge has long been and will long be a premier home defense weapon.
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Old September 7, 2015, 05:00 AM   #46
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A coupla things:
Quote:
[t's why a .410 can't produce near as wide a pattern with shot
Not so. The .410s patterns are going to be less dense than a 12 gauge pattern - because there is less shot in the pattern. The overall size - diameter - of the pattern will be similar to a 12 gauge (or any other gauge) if fired from the same degree of choke (all other things being equal)
About .410 buck velocity at 800 fps. I have not chrono'd any .410 buck but stated velocities on any that I have looked at (Winchester, Federal, Remington, Sellier and Belloit) are all in excess of 1130 fps. Slower than 12 gauge at 1300-1600 fps but way quicker than 800.
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Old September 7, 2015, 10:21 AM   #47
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Round balls have proven to be VERY poor performers for hundreds of years, both before and after impact. They slow quickly after leaving the muzzle and are erratic and unpredictable after impact Buckshot of any size as well as slugs are slower than traditional muzzleloader speeds except for some magnum loads which will come close to matching

For hundreds of years 36 caliber muzzle loaders shooting round balls have been considered as "small" game loads. In other words rabbit and squirrel loads. Moving up to 45 caliber is usually considered the minimum for 150 lb whitetails and 50-58 caliber for larger game.

To expect good results from a few smaller 33 caliber round balls to be effective is in just the opposite of what has been observed for hundreds of years. At close ranges where 8-10 balls can all be placed in the vitals they can do the job. But even 12 ga doesn't always get all of the shot in the vitals. Any less than 8-10 and results are poor. The 410 starts with less than what is needed and unless you get a lucky hit the odds are not with you.

A 25 yard shot with most open choked guns is pushing the limits for 12 ga. No way I'd trust 410.
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Old September 9, 2015, 06:41 AM   #48
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12 gauge reduced recoil loads.

Thread over.
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Old September 9, 2015, 05:46 PM   #49
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Standard over the counter .410 is as slow as 800 fps according to a variety of manufacturers. Getting up to even the entry of 12 gauge buck requires specialized defensive loads which are comparable to the cost of basic 12 ga buck with, again, 1/2 the lead.

Conversely, basic 12 gauge buck starts at 1300 fps.

Quote:
12 gauge reduced recoil loads.
An excellent option which bleeds off some of the recoil/velocity for a recoil sensitive shooter while maintaining the number and overall weight of the shot.
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Old September 9, 2015, 09:01 PM   #50
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There will certainly be less mess to cleanup with the .410...
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