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Old December 7, 2012, 06:56 PM   #1
Vireye
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New Duty 9mm - Opinions?

Hey all.

I'm looking to trade my Glock 30. .45 is a bit too expensive for me to shoot enough to maintain proficiency, and the grip is a bit fat for me.

I'm looking to buy a new 9mm full-size pistol. It will serve as a duty pistol for armed guard work, and as a CCW. The concealability is not an issue, as I have concealed full-size pistols pretty regularly.

I have a SIG Sauer p228r that I love, however she's more of a range gun, and honestly due to the cost I'd hate to have it confiscate if I (God forbid) ever had to shoot someone.

I've more or less narrowed it down to a Glock 17 or a Beretta 92FS. I can get an even, or damn near even, trade for my Glock 30 (Night Sights add enough to the value).

Most of my friends and co-workers carry Glocks, and two of them are Glock Armorers, so keeping it maintained beyond user-end service is pretty easy.

But, I'm also a Soldier, and I've used and qualified with the M9 a fair bit and am familiar with the platform.

The size difference seems pretty negligible, 1/2 inch or less in any given direction. Capacity is also similar...17 for the G17, 18 for the 92FS (with MecGar mags, 15 std).

Here's a BIG deciding factor for me though. I have heard, but never seen personally, of a BG being able to potentially disassemble a 92 series pistol with one hand.

Heard of this happening second-hand from a buddy in the Academy for the West Hartford PD. Said the instructor told him to point the Beretta at him, and promptly pulled the slide right off. Also saw it in a show once (NCIS, I believe, but could always just be Hollywood).

Anyone hear ever seen this occur? How easy is it to do?

EDIT: One additional note...looking for a model with a rail for my TLR-1S, so I guess it would be a Beretta 92A1, not an FS?
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:00 PM   #2
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PSA has SIG SP2022 9mm for $349 right now. Can't go wrong for that price plus if god forbid you loose it you are out $349.
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:02 PM   #3
Lavid2002
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Your deciding factor for whether you want to purchase a handgun is whether or not you saw someone take it apart out of the operators hands in one hand once?

Do you realize how implausible this scenario is?

You may want to pick a different criteria.
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:06 PM   #4
Vireye
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@Lavid2002

I'd hardly say it's a minor criteria. I'm looking for any facts regarding this.

Again, this was told to me second-hand. At the academy, the instructor mocked one recruit's use of the Beretta. Told the recruit to draw on him (Empty, of course). Student drew from his holster and the instructor IMMEDIATELY pulled the entire upper assembly off the weapon.

IF said student wasn't exaggerating, yeah, it shook my faith in the 92 a bit. Not much mind you, but enough to ask the question.

I work in an area KNOWN to have gang members train to disarm police and security officers. Last thing I want is a possibility of one being able to PULL MY WEAPON IN HALF in a SHTF scenario.

If it's possible but difficult, then I don't care. If its something easily done, then yeah, its going to affect my decision a bit.
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:13 PM   #5
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Either of those will be just fine. I'm not saying it's impossible to pull the slide off a 92FS, but I think that's something we can pretty safely keep in the realm of Hollywood.

Btw, it happened in another movie also. Jet Li stripped Martin Rigg's (Mel Gibson) 92FS with one hand. That was always one of my favorite moments in the movie.

EDIT: If you're worried about being disarmed either through disassembly or otherwise...carry a backup.
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Old December 7, 2012, 10:53 PM   #6
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The movie slide-strip is silly, if you look at a still image of the scene, the disassembly lever is already down.

Besides, with any semiautomatic, anyone close enough to disassemble your slide can push the slide far enough out of battery to stop the gun from working.

The simplest solution? If someone lunges for your pistol, shoot them.

The 92-series is a wonderful pistol with some legitimate criticisms, most notably the long first trigger pull and the weight/size. The risk of being "field-stripped" is, in my opinion, not a legitimate criticism of the design.

That said, if you're going to have to conceal, the reduced weight of the also-excellent G17 might be nice.
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Here's a BIG deciding factor for me though. I have heard, but never seen personally, of a BG being able to potentially disassemble a 92 series pistol with one hand.
I really don't have an appropriate response for this. You heard it from a guy, and saw it on a tv show? Come on now. Use that rational side of your brain, you know better.

I'll say this. If there is someone I consider to be so hostile that I have drawn my weapon, either at home or from concealment, and that person has gotten to within the distance of diassembling my weapon, something went very wrong. If they surprised me or rushed me that is one thing. But I'm not letting someone walk up to me and disassemble my gun in my hand. Remember it takes roughly 7 yards, 21 feet, of separation between you and an attacker to give you time to draw and fire or they are already on you. I always try to be mindful of the distance between me and anyone I consider a threat. Too close and I am drawing, and I'll deal with the consequences. Not saying I will just plain shoot him/her for getting close, but someone moving with perceived intent of hurting/killing me is rationale enough for me to issue a challenge, draw, and attempt to back out of the area. Of course state laws come into play here too.

Quote:
and honestly due to the cost I'd hate to have it confiscate if I (God forbid) ever had to shoot someone.
I had this argument not long ago on the HK forums, also some rather expensive guns. And I'll be frank: that's a horrible attitude. If I have to draw my weapon to defend myself, that gun getting confiscated is the last thought on my mind. My only concern is my ability to deal with that threat. If I lose the gun to the court system but in the process saved my life, that was the best $800-$900 I ever spent. If the gun is collectable or has special value to you and you shoot something else just as well, fine. But I carry what I am most confident in. And if you spend all your range time shooting the P228 but carrying something else you're only doing yourself a disservice.
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Old December 8, 2012, 02:18 AM   #8
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I've more or less narrowed it down to a Glock 17 or a Beretta 92FS.

To me Less weight is better. i never shot a G17, but I have shot the 92FS.

TBS, I pick the G17.
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Old December 8, 2012, 02:27 AM   #9
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I doubt the "Instructor" did this but, if he did it's not something that many people could do.

The one thing I have seen is a semi auto can be turned into a 1 shot gun by grabbing the slide. You can shoot it once and until you rack the slide back again your out of the fight unless your one shot was on target?
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Old December 8, 2012, 02:36 AM   #10
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Yup, it's true.

Grab a late 1980s pulp gunrag and you will see lots of stories about gun grapping fights involving, take-your-92-apart, before you know it. (During the demostrations the same BG could/would put the slide back on too.) Before the internet some guys just had too much time on their hands. It is not a 92fs owner issue to worry about.

If you want to stand still long enough holding your favorite laptop I'm sure I can find a High School kid able to quickly change your hard disk at arms reach too. eewww...better be careful.
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Old December 8, 2012, 04:29 AM   #11
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Quote:
Besides, with any semiautomatic, anyone close enough to disassemble your slide can push the slide far enough out of battery to stop the gun from working.

The simplest solution? If someone lunges for your pistol, shoot them.
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Old December 8, 2012, 05:14 AM   #12
Vireye
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This is why I love these forums. There sheer range of opinions always gets me thinking. (I mean that, no sarcasm intended!)

@ TunnelRat - The "rational side of my brain" is, again, what made me ask. When it was a cop and fellow soldier who mentioned it, the rational side of my brain said "Hm, not the first time I've heard of this. Better ask and make sure, since my use of the M9 has been so limited in practical use." Hearing about a possible error like that, seeing it demonstrated on Youtube (in a controlled environment, so not a fair assessment of an "oh ****" scenario), and having a SSG in the US Army voice a concern seemed like a pretty "rational" reason to double check to me!

Sounds like while its possible, the ease of field-stripping (or using the "pistol ninja technique" as its apparently sometimes called) is greatly over-simplified in stories/youtube/hollywood/etc. Which is what I wanted to know.

(BTW, to avoid the infamous internet lack-of-tone thing, I'm not ******/offended/etc. I post questions like this because I expect differing opinions/debate. Just voicing my own opinion!)


That being said, I'm still pretty torn. I'll likely end up going to Hoffman's (LGS) in the morning and holding the two side-by-side for an hour before one of them ends up coming home with me
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Old December 8, 2012, 05:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Here's a BIG deciding factor for me though. I have heard, but never seen personally, of a BG being able to potentially disassemble a 92 series pistol with one hand.
The idea of any firearm is do defend yourself at a distance. If someone is getting that close you might as well have a knife. If someone gets that close they could also grab your firearm and shoot you with it.

Quote:
I have a SIG Sauer p228r that I love, however she's more of a range gun, and honestly due to the cost I'd hate to have it confiscate if I (God forbid) ever had to shoot someone
That would be the last thing i would think of when choosing a firearm.
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Old December 8, 2012, 06:56 AM   #14
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Clearly you should go with the Glock, you're familiar with them and it sounds like they're supported by your dept.

As far as the Beretta goes, I think you're really overthinking things with the slide removal scenario. If someone grabs your gun you are now in a fight for your life, even the most dexterous criminal won't be trying to disassemble it, they're wanting to shoot you with it. Perhaps you should put all that energy into practicing gun retention techniques and give some thought to back up guns and knives, regardless of which gun you choose.

Or buy the Beretta and have it fitted with a threaded barrel, if you keep the thread protector on it they'll have to unscrew it before they can remove the slide. That should slow them down enough for you to work up a plan B.

Oh yeah, FWIW I carry a FNP45 Tactical on duty and am very happy with it, they make a couple of 9s you might look at.
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:14 AM   #15
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Since you are comfortable, competent and qualified with the Beretta go with that.

The Beretta like the Glock needs very little maintenance to keep running, so having an armorer around just in case for either platform should be a non issue.

If it were me, I'd go with the lighter of the 2 guns.
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Old December 8, 2012, 10:51 AM   #16
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Another vote for the Sig SP2022 9mm. It is a great pistol for $400 bucks. You are already use to the P228 DA/SA trigger.
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Old December 8, 2012, 12:23 PM   #17
Vireye
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Thank you all for your opinions!

Unfortunately it looks like it'll be a moot point for the time being.

Went to the LGS with $150 + a trade to see what they had. Beautiful stainless 92FS, and a Gen4 G17.

My trade, a Glock 30 (Gen 3), 450 rounds through it, with new (3 months old) Trijicon Hi Def Nightsights. (when new, $550 gun + $155 night sights).

Best offer I got was $330...was hoping for a bit more. The Gen4 G17 was $549 and the 92FS was $729 ($about 600 at a rival store).

Can't justify any more cash right now than that with the holidays around the corner, so looks like it'll be waiting until tax season! (For now, looks like my P228 gets to stay primary for a bit longer)
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Old December 8, 2012, 06:51 PM   #18
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walther ppq
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:06 PM   #19
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Dan, you read my mind.

Walther PPQ -- can be had for around $500 and its (IMHO) the best production polymer production pistol on the market at this point in time.
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:13 PM   #20
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You can get a blued NIB Beretta 92FS or M9 for about $550 from CDNN.

It is almost impossible to find a PPQ in 9mm in stock let along at $500 these days. The hype has these things flying off the shelf and the price has moved to about $550 when you can find one.
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:22 PM   #21
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You could get at least $100 more for your Glock with a private sale than they offered you for trade, at least around here. Then you would be in the ballpark. Also, the Bruniton 92FS runs $100 or so less than the Inox.

As far as choosing between the two, both are accurate and highly reliable, but the trigger/safety systems are about as different as can be. Consider what system you want and your choice will be made.
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Old December 9, 2012, 02:00 AM   #22
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Quote:
Went to the LGS with $150 + a trade to see what they had. Beautiful stainless 92FS, and a Gen4 G17.
I'm sure if it was a gen3 17 your getting close.
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Old December 9, 2012, 03:05 AM   #23
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Vireye, don't trade it to the gun shop. They are in many cases like used car salesmen. They do need to make a profit but, if your buying a new gun the same day they should give you a better deal on the trade-in.

Try selling your Gen 3 on your own. You are more likely to get a better price for it.

I buy guns with one thought in mind. I am never going to sell it. I may trade one but, it would have to be for another gun and a even up trade.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:22 AM   #24
loose_holster_dan
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when i replied earlier, i didn't have a chance to read all previous posts.

while the 92 can be disassembled quite easily (i can do it with one hand in under 2 seconds), unless you are going up against a cia assassin, your attacker won't be thinking clearly enough to notice that it's a 92 and have the dexterity to take it apart before you shoot him with it.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:46 AM   #25
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The Glock would be the best choice given all the information.
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