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Old December 7, 2012, 11:55 AM   #1
thelonelychild
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home defense: .410 over 12 gauge

I make the argument the .410 is a supior home defense shotgun to the 12 gauge and i woullike to share why

1. Power
I bring this up because a common misconception in some people is that the .410 is too "weak" and what i belive they must mean is the muzzle velocity well it is a fact that the velocity from a .410 is the same as 12 gauge now this means as far as power goes we are iff to an even start

2. Recoil
a .410 has signifigantly less recoil than a 12 allowing for more steady aiming and quicker follow up shots than a 12 a plus is if you choose this recoil adverse people can also pick up the gun and defend themselves

3. more pellets does not neccisarily equal better
this is what im going to get hammered for but i dont agree with the theory that more pellets must be better home defense is a very close quarters situation and the shot does not have the distance to spread much so if your gun has a half decent grouping at that range it will have a very concentraded group and i belive 5 000 pellets to center mass will kill just as easily as 10 and think of if you miss how many more pellets your sending flying through walls or windows endangering innocents because distance is really where more pellets start helping is at a distance when you need more to have a greater chance of hitting vitals on a target (on a sidenote a .410 slug will kill if they hit a vital just as easily as a 12 will)

I personally use a rossi circuit judge with pdx1 for my primary home defense and i trust me and my familys lives to it more so than the 12 gauge i also have choose as you see fit but this is my opinion and i just wanted to make people think
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:14 PM   #2
darkroommike
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"Power" is more than just muzzle velocity it is velocity and mass of metal.

.410 recoil, second shot may be faster, but how fast depends on the weapon. I might also suggest that one 12 ga. load might do the trick, less need for a second shot. You are also going to get a lot more muzzle flash with your "magnum" .410 and short barrel which may screw up your night vision defeating your ability to get of an aimed second shot.

Given all that, if you do not plan to train, a .410 might be the better choice, keep in mind that .410 000 is 3-5 pellets and 12 ga. 4 buck is 21 pellets (I like that) and that 12 ga. SD loads are relatively light and your 5 pellet .410 loading is a "magnum". The 12 ga., with a barrel change, can also be used for sport shooting and put meat on the table.

Last edited by darkroommike; December 7, 2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:52 PM   #3
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Lemme first do a little prediction... This thread will proceed as all of the others over the last 15 years regarding this very debate... Won't live long before it 2 groups of folks gallantly circling a deceased critter taking turns beating it to death...

Now the way I see it is, the argument regarding equal performance regarding velocity and such only holds true at the muzzle and nearly true until the wad petals begin to open... From this point on, more is better takes over and your understanding of "terminal velocity" is not exactly spot on...

Even the 12 gauge suffers this but it is here that payload capacity keeps it up to snuff...

Might a .410 do the job??? Sure it might... But once the wad departs, the individual pellet begins to severely shave off speed so penetration potential reduces... Sure you have a fist size pattern but with fewer pellets you risk actually not affecting the body enough to stop the threat... The 12 gauge having more pellets of equal size has a higher probability of hitting something to stop the threat...

So the recoil I do not have an issue with is the only possible benefit... Your over penetration argument defeats your argument that at close quarters it is equal... Since the 12 gauge is not even a guarantee of instant stopping power in all cases, than the .410 would logically have a higher likelihood of failing to achieve the same results with fewer pellets...

I love the little .410 more than most but I have to with smart folks like Newton, Mass and Math...

Brent
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:03 PM   #4
2damnold4this
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If you want less recoil and quicker follow up shots than a 12 gauge, why not some sort of semi-auto in .223/5.56?
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:08 PM   #5
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I likes my .410 but would not use shot for a HD load, slugs all the way. Small enough for my 5' sister, mild enough for my arthritis crippled brother but effective enough out to 8 yards to ruin the most belligerent boogermans day as long as you hit him. A miss with a heavy hard recoiling 12 gauge that my brother would hesitate to shoot or that my sister wouldn't be able to shoot makes the .410 tops in their hands.

Personal choice for me is the 20 but then I do like to be a little different.
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:21 PM   #6
thelonelychild
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All im trying to get across really is that a .410 shell shot at a home defense range in center mass will kill an intruder just like a 12 gauge will and whats dead is dead is dead
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:28 PM   #7
thelonelychild
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And also i belive .410 has a higher payload than many handguns praised for home defense which is why i dont understand why it is considered an inadiquite shell for home defense in the first place the logic is just confuseing
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:39 PM   #8
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Actually it really does not live up to that claim. Sure it has the potential to be just as lethal... And there dead certainly is dead...

But the ability of the .410 to do this instantly certainly is not equal to the .73 caliber shotgun...

Killing is not the intent while it certainly can be a side affect of stopping the threat which is the actual purpose of deploying a firearm in self defense...

I want my threats stopped right now... For this I prefer the payload be weighed in ounces rather than grains...

As for folks with the need for the lighter recoil may need to resort to a .410 but need to consider any and all limitations due to such a smaller payload...

Brent
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
All im trying to get across really is that a .410 shell shot at a home defense range in center mass will kill an intruder just like a 12 gauge will and whats dead is dead is dead
I think the point of using the 12 gauge is that the extra power it offers gives it a better chance of stopping an attacker given the same hit. No one is saying that a .410 can't kill someone but the larger gauges do have more power and more power can make a difference.

If you see having less power/recoil and fewer projectiles launched with each shot as an advantage the .410 has over the larger gauges, why not go to a rifle in .233/5.56?
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:47 PM   #10
thelonelychild
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Hahaha well i guess im blind i dont see these limitations in the scenario im talking about i do belive its plenty effective to stop the threat and i ask what is the easiest way to stop the threat? I dont go for wounds sorry harsh but reality.
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:52 PM   #11
Grant D
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I think my double barreled, 12 gauge coach gun, with outside hammers,that's sitting next to my easy chair is a better choice than a 410 pistol.

But.....that's just my opinion.
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:56 PM   #12
BigJimP
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.410's will typically have 1/2 oz of shot = 219 grains....

so yes, 1/2 oz in a .410 is heavier than the typical defensive cartridge in a 9mm ( 147gr ) or even in a .40S&W ( 180gr) ...or even in a .357 mag ( 158gr ) ....but less than a .45 acp ( 230 gr)....

and the typical 9mm 147gr bullet might only be going around 1,000 fps ...but that's probably all you'll get for velocity out of a Judge as well...or maybe less....
----------------------
It comes down to what you want to shoot for Defense...what you shoot the best - and in the one in a gazillion chance that you ever need a gun ...you can decide if after it was all over it worked for you or not....

Its the same discussion ...about mag capacity ...do you need 19 rounds or is 7 or 8 rounds enough ....

everybody needs to make up their own mind.
------------------
I have.....

and my defensive weapon of choice is a 1911 ...a 5" gun ..in .45 acp ...and I will rarely carry an extra mag. 8 Rds of 230gr .45 acp...is all I need to put effective fire on a target ...drawing from a holster and double tapping a target with virtually 100% accuracy between 9 - 30 Feet..and my training goal is out of a holster for a double tap under 3 seconds / and I practice it weekly.

I suggest you do the same with your Judge...put a couple of boxes a week thru it, at least. --- and you'll probably be fine. But no, the Judge - or any other .410 is not for me, for Defense.
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:57 PM   #13
thelonelychild
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No i wouldent use a 5.56 way too much chance of over penetration i considered it breifly but where i live its too dangerous to try
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:05 PM   #14
2damnold4this
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Quote:
No i wouldent use a 5.56 way too much chance of over penetration i considered it breifly but where i live its too dangerous to try
Yet you will use 000 buck?
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:10 PM   #15
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BTW, I currently use 20 gauge guns due to some limitations from a left hand arm... I am limited, locally, to #3 buck reliably and rarely #2 buck...

Brent
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:33 PM   #16
thelonelychild
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I do not use 000 actually i use win pdx1 .410 and yes im even scared of over penetration with those but short of switching to a baseball bat. Apartments are terrible
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:45 PM   #17
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link

.223/5.56 doesn't penetrate walls worse than buckshot and you have fewer projectiles to worry about.
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Old December 7, 2012, 03:00 PM   #18
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Now that we're considering over penetration, suddenly a 12-gauge loaded with #4 buck makes even MORE sense....
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:07 PM   #19
2damnold4this
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Quote:
BTW, I currently use 20 gauge guns due to some limitations from a left hand arm.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. You aren't giving up much, if anything, in power that a 12 gauge provides.

Since I broke my leg, it has to be a handgun for me, so I can steady myself on my walker with the other hand.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:03 PM   #20
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I'm trying to understand how a .410 shotgun that fires 3-5 000 Buck pellets with the same velocity as a 12ga. fires 6-9 000 Buck pellets can NOT be effective for self-defense.....
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Old December 7, 2012, 10:46 PM   #21
boattale
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What I can't see is how five or six pellets are better than nine or ten or twelve. Get hit with either load in a good spot (bad spot?) and you're down. But still, to suggest a lighter load is better? How so? Assuming you can hit with either a 12 gauge or .410 that is.
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:58 PM   #22
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I don't feel unarmed with a .410

But I wouldn't call any Shotgun useless and any of the factory loaded gauges will be up to the task with the right ammo.

It is all up to the user of the shotgun.
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Old December 8, 2012, 02:29 AM   #23
SHR970
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Didn't we just go through this? Last go around
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Old December 8, 2012, 05:02 AM   #24
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I prefer the 16 gauge.
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Old December 8, 2012, 09:15 AM   #25
hogdogs
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Seeker,
Quote:
I'm trying to understand how a .410 shotgun that fires 3-5 000 Buck pellets with the same velocity as a 12ga. fires 6-9 000 Buck pellets can NOT be effective for self-defense.....
You are apparently posting in the wrong thread or reading something into this one that hasn't been stated...

So far your statement hasn't been addressed previous to your post... No one said the .410 "Can NOT be effective for self defense"...

Contrary... I stated that it might and/or could serve defensive duty... But the OP has the mistaken opinion that the .410 loaded with equal size lead balls to that in a 12 gauge shell are "equal" or possibly even "supior" (OP's spelling not mine) to the 12 gauge gun...

I would rather use a 12 gauge loaded with some 00 buckshot but I must "SETTLE" for a 20 gauge for more than reason resulting from a severely limiting injury to left arm and hand. I cannot reliably cycle the 12 gauge for second shot follow up as it often jumps out of my grasp upon firing and then the action is at half cycle and we all know that soft, short or stopping during cycling can lead to feed issues so I used the next biggest gun I could handle and that is the 20 gauge...

With the 20 gauge payload being about 1/8th ounce lighter on average given identical brand and pellet size, but equal in velocity, I am giving up a considerable amount but feel I am still not under gunned... Now if I couldn't handle the 20 gauge, I think I would resort to a super reliable, soft recoiling 9mm with a snot load of follow up shots sitting in the bowels of the grip...

The .410 can and will "kill" just as good as a .22 or a 10 gauge or even a .50 cal rifle round...

But in the sense of defense against humans, it is proven that death is not the goal...

Immediately stopping the threat is the goal...

SHR970,
Quote:
Didn't we just go through this? Last go around
See my first post in this thread....

Currently the thread lives on since it is still on topic and we haven't quite reached the "dead horse" state quite yet...

Now to profess the love of the .410 is fine... As is stating that you feel it would serve you in the role of defensive shotgun...

But I cannot sit here and forget all the schooling regarding physics etc. or lifelong acquired experience using the .410, 20 and 12 gauge EXTENSIVELY since I was a tiny boy...

Just cannot claim the efficacy of the lesser payload is equal to that of the larger payload...

Keep in mind my dad handed down his Mossberg .410 bolt gun to be MINE at 8 years of age... Before I got a bigger gun I had gained some pretty good skills with my "little .410" over the years. Many adults would brag on my abilities and some cash wagers were made over my head regarding my abilities to drop all sorts of game with it...

But given the first opportunity, I upgraded to 12 gauge for larger targets as I knew first hand the limitations of the .410 in both shot pattern density at distance and outright knock down capability...

Brent
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