The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 3, 2012, 04:28 PM   #51
jeepman4804
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2008
Posts: 209
Actually a 4lbs 1911 trigger versus a 12 glock trigger will cause a huge difference in accuracy in high stress situations. My guess is you have never taken an advanced handgun class that induces high stress/adrenaline into your shooting. If you have then I apologize for the assumption. I can tell you from my personal experience that I have much better hits using my duty 1911 or my Apex equipped MP45 versus a factory XD45 when I have attending numerous handgun classes. Train yourself to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire and it won't be a problem. Nobody has posted a single case where a trigger job (lightened or just polished) has been used against the shooter in court if it was a righteous shoot.

Edit: I agreed on an excessively light trigger, but 4lbs+ I see no problems with. I have seen several high quality production 1911's that have 4lbs triggers, does that make them a liability?

Last edited by jeepman4804; December 3, 2012 at 04:39 PM.
jeepman4804 is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 06:46 PM   #52
jackpine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Posts: 350
for EDC I am only packing a glock with factory parts and NOT the 3.5 connector as glock factory lit states that the 3.5 is a target accessory and not suitable for duty/defense use
jackpine is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 02:53 AM   #53
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
Quote:
Actually a 4lbs 1911 trigger versus a 12 glock trigger will cause a huge difference in accuracy in high stress situations. My guess is you have never taken an advanced handgun class that induces high stress/adrenaline into your shooting. If you have then I apologize for the assumption. I can tell you from my personal experience that I have much better hits using my duty 1911 or my Apex equipped MP45 versus a factory XD45 when I have attending numerous handgun classes. Train yourself to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire and it won't be a problem. Nobody has posted a single case where a trigger job (lightened or just polished) has been used against the shooter in court if it was a righteous shoot.
If you consider IDPA type competition high stress, then yes, I have. I'd say the stress you have in competition is at least as great as anything you can get in a class.

Having said that, I've shot DA/SA pistols, 1911's, DAO Revolvers and Glocks with factory and NY-1 triggers in competition, and I would say there was a negligible difference in my accuracy. With adrenaline pumping, your brain hardly registers a difference between a 4 lb 1911 SA pull and a 10 lb Glock NY-1 pull. Granted I'm not the best shot, better than many, a lot that are better than me, but I can still put holes generally where they need to go. In IDPA style competition, I see a negligible difference. Just punching holes in paper at the range, I'm actually a better shot with my NY-1 G19 than I am with anything else.

And if I'm not mistaken, the high stress/adrenaline in those classes usually comes from doing heavy exercise prior to shooting, which doesn't even get close to emulating what a real shooting is like. IDPA like competition is better as it more closely resembles the stress of a shooting, though even it isn't that close either. Please correct me if I'm wrong about the advanced shooting classes.

YMMV

Quote:
Edit: I agreed on an excessively light trigger, but 4lbs+ I see no problems with. I have seen several high quality production 1911's that have 4lbs triggers, does that make them a liability?
Here's the crux of the issue. We're talking about excessively modifying your trigger. The weight of a trigger is arbitrary. Any somewhat experienced shooter would say that a 4 lb trigger is fine since your finger should be off the trigger. But here's two things you haven't considered.

1) Are you absolutely sure that when the SHTF, and you need to draw that your finger will for sure be out of that trigger guard until you're ready to fire? It's easy to say yes when you've never been in a shooting situation (higher stress than anything you can artificially create). But statistics show that in those situations, the finger has a way of prematurely finding it's way into the trigger guard. It's happened to me in competition, and I beat myself up over it.

2) Regardless of facts, lawyers who want you convicted will bend the truth/facts. He can use the fact that you went against the recommendation of the factory and lightened your trigger beyond what they consider safe to paint the picture of you as someone who took your carry piece and made it into a deadly killing machine. This is almost exactly what happened to Harold Fish, except they used the fact he carried a 10mm to prove this point. I'm not saying you'll get convicted (and you probably won't based on that alone), but you will likely have another hurdle to jump in your defense. This means more money you'll have to pay out to your lawyer, and possibly even shelling out money to bring in an expert witness to testify that the trigger job isn't what the prosecutor is making it out to be. Why would you want to give your enemy free ammunition?

People like to hide behind the crutch of, "I need this light trigger to shoot straight!" When some time at the range with a carry piece with a stock trigger will get you basically to the same point.

I'm not a lawyer, and I will tell everyone to take my advice with a grain of salt. But the experts, those who have been a part of cases either as witnesses, expert witnesses, or defense lawyers almost all agree with what I am saying here. If you have trouble hitting a target with a stock trigger, you need more time at the range.

On a side note, no one has posted a case where a trigger job has led to a conviction, this much is true. But the absence of a case now does not guarantee it will never happen. Prior to Harold Fish, there was no case where someone was convicted almost solely on the fact he used a 10mm...yet 2 separate criminal trials and 3 years in prison for a clean shoot have proved my statement here.

Also, I can surmise that although these things haven't led to a conviction, they have been brought up against someone. We don't hear about it because it becomes a non-issue. BUT it's another hurdle you have to jump in your defense.

Have you also considered the possibility that most people don't modify their triggers and there are too few cases of a self defense shooting with a modded trigger because of this? No one I know personally who carries, or has a HD pistol has the trigger modded. It seems that the majority here won't do it on a carry piece either. I would imagine most of the public wouldn't either. I wouldn't want you, or anyone on this board to be the test case.

Last edited by Gaerek; December 4, 2012 at 03:04 AM.
Gaerek is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 10:38 AM   #54
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,188
Quote:
This is almost exactly what happened to Harold Fish, except they used the fact he carried a 10mm to prove this point


Quote:
Prior to Harold Fish, there was no case where someone was convicted almost solely on the fact he used a 10mm

It's recommended to carry the same handgun caliber has your local PD carries. (Not NJ) or at least the most common handgun calibers among LE.

9mm, 40 S&W, .45ACP, .38spcl

Even .380 of course.

But you know what I mean, and sorry if I missed a few.


Things like 10mm and .44mag etc. Are going to have that same negative effect in court. Just as much as the lightened trigger.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 12:27 PM   #55
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
Threads have been locked on discussions of the Zimmerman case. I bring is up because it's recent and relevant. I've been following the case. I've seen the details. The evidence appears to show very strongly that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. I'm done talking about Zimmerman because I don't want the thread locked. Go look it up on your own.

Quote:
and by the way George Z's gun wasn't modified so that has nothing to do with this thread
My point was in reply to someone who said that if it was a clean legal shoot, it will never see court. That is plain FALSE. Context and reading comprehension are key. Look at the statement I quoted. I didn't bring Zimmerman up because his gun was modded. I brought it up because it was what appears to be a clean shoot that's going to court.

Quote:
then putting his trust in the criminal justice system. Instead of finding salvation and legal protection, however, his decision cost him three years in prison
And statistically, if you're in a shooting, even though you know better, you will probably talk to the investigator. Most people do, even though they shouldn't. The fact that he talked without a lawyer present is irrelevant.

Quote:
Thankfully, Mr. Fish won his appeal and is currently a free man.
I like the fact that you bolded this. As if it's relevant and it somehow proves that using a non-standard, well, anything (ammo, trigger, etc) will make you a free man as long as it's a clean shoot. HE STILL SPENT 3 YEARS IN PRISON AND BANKRUPTED HIS FAMILY. Mr. Fish actually passed away in October, and his family is left paying the bills. Is that something you wish to do?

Quote:
I didn’t get all the details but sounds like he shot an unarmed man.
This is also irrelevant. The basis of whether a shooting is legal or not isn't based on whether or not the person who was shot was armed. It's whether a reasonable person (the jurors are usually made to put themselves in the shoes of the shooter) would believe that the actions were justified. If Mr. Fish feared for his life (and read what happened, as you admitted you didn't) and believed his life was in danger, his actions were justified. You act as though this wasn't a legal shoot. It WAS a legal shoot. He made mistakes that most people make. The critical piece against him was that "deadly man killer" round he carried. Also, the Judge wouldn't allow the man's (not Fish, the guy who was shot) background introduced as evidence, which showed him to be violent and mentally ill. Fish's background as an avid shooter WAS allowed, and the prosecutor used that (along with the 10mm he shot) to paint him as a cold blooded killer.

The argument you are still trying to make is that a modded gun has never been used as evidence against a shooter. I'll go over this one more time.

1) We don't know that. It may not have been used to convict someone, but there is a high probability that it was used as evidence and was another legal hurdle to overcome.

2) It's a logical fallacy to believe that because something hasn't happened in the past, that it won't happen in the future. What hasn't happened in the past has NO BEARING whatsoever on what will happen in the future. Like I said, in Fish, no one had been convicted based on the caliber of weapon used before. Then, it happened. He was the test case, and it cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars, and 5 years (3 spent in prison) of his life.

3) Most people don't mod their guns. It's a decent possibility that very few modded guns have been used in shootings. So few, that we simply don't have access to any test cases.

You seem to be ok having to explain your used of a modded trigger in court. You are correct in assuming that you probably won't be convicted solely on that alone (assuming you didn't have an ND that killed someone). But are you aware of how much it will likely cost you to fight a conviction? Or how much time it will take? Every legal hurdle you have to jump through adds time and money.

Let's not forget that there are almost ZERO experts that recommend modding the trigger on a carry gun. If you ask people who have been part of a trial, either as a defense lawyer or expert witness, almost everyone of them (I would say all, because I haven't found one that does without the disclaimer "at your own risk" but I haven't heard from every single one in the country) says it's stupid (I simplified here) to mod the trigger of your carry gun.

Since you've asked for cases where a modded trigger was used against someone, how about I ask you to find something for me. Find me experts who say it's ok to mod a trigger beyond factory recommended specs, and report back. I've done some legwork and given some very good information (that you refuse to accept) straight from the mouth of a very well known expert in his field. This shouldn't be too tough for you.

I don't want anyone to have to fight for more than they have to in court. Anyone, with practice can shoot a stock trigger nearly as well as a modded trigger. A modded trigger isn't necessarily a liability in a shooting, but it very well could be a liability in court. You are free to do what you want with your guns. If you think your modded trigger is ok, and are willing to accept the potential consequences, then that's on you. I'm only trying to help educate.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, unless you can actually find an expert that says it's ok to mod your trigger, then I'll comment again. I think my argument is out there, and if you've read everything I've written, you know my stance.

Last edited by Tom Servo; December 10, 2012 at 11:07 PM. Reason: Removed reference to deleted material
Gaerek is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 01:30 PM   #56
barstoolguru
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2011
Posts: 180
Quote:
The basis of whether a shooting is legal or not isn't based on whether or not the person who was shot was armed. It's whether a reasonable person (the jurors are usually made to put themselves in the shoes of the shooter) would believe that the actions were justified. If Mr. Fish feared for his life (and read what happened, as you admitted you didn't) and believed his life was in danger, his actions were justified.
You failed to look at the date of this case; it was before the SYG laws where enacted. So you seem to want to hang on this so let’s look at it, here is a guy walking down a trail and another man is walking towards him with 3 unleashed dogs.
we can assume that it is a state or federal park in which dogs are supposed to be leashed. with that in mind I can hear the conversation...YOUR dogs are supposed to be leashed... screw you and mind your own bee wax.... what did you say?.... screw off....I am going to report you....O yea....bam,bam...

Now under federal law you’re not supposed to carry a gun on federal land (that’s changed but not at the time of the shooting)

How many times have we heard of someone knowing they have a gun and being aggressive when they normally wouldn’t? There are a lot of dead spots in this case because there is only one witness. The gun was mention but no mods are mentioned and Mr. Fish was a gun enthusiast (read that) so I am sure like the rest of us he did something to the gun

Sounds like Mr fish went into this with somewhat dirty hands and it just got worse

Quote:
Let's not forget that there are almost ZERO experts that recommend modding the trigger on a carry gun
no they don't because they don't know you and your ability’s. if this is the case then custom guns would be safe queens because heaven forbid you should have to use it in a SD situation. I have a gun digest book wrote by Massad Ayoob and in there he mentions that a lot of pistol shooter on the IPSC use there every day carry guns in the competitions and I am sure they have mods and they carry them for SD, they don’t seem to worry about it

Last edited by barstoolguru; December 4, 2012 at 01:37 PM.
barstoolguru is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 03:17 PM   #57
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
I realize I said I wasn't going to post again, but the amount of ignorance being spewed here is overwhelming.

Quote:
You failed to look at the date of this case; it was before the SYG laws where enacted. So you seem to want to hang on this so let’s look at it, here is a guy walking down a trail and another man is walking towards him with 3 unleashed dogs.
SYG has as much relevance in this case as it does in Zimmerman's case. That is, NONE. Stand your ground just means you don't have a duty to attempt to retreat. The man Fish shot was younger and more fit than Fish himself. He was running after Fish. The man would have caught up to Fish. At that point, we don't know what would have happened. Fish did the only thing he could; point the gun at his aggressor and tell him to stop. When he did not comply, being fearful for his life, he fired to save himself from possible serious injury or death. The man Fish shot was younger, physically bigger, faster, and stronger. To the point where there was a difference in power between the men. This justified his use of a firearm.

Quote:
we can assume
Let me stop you there. To assume is to make an as...well, you know the rest, and you've done a good job of it here.

Quote:
that it is a state or federal park in which dogs are supposed to be leashed. with that in mind I can hear the conversation...YOUR dogs are supposed to be leashed... screw you and mind your own bee wax.... what did you say?.... screw off....I am going to report you....O yea....bam,bam...
Oh cool, where did you find this information. If this is true, then I'm wrong. Oh wait, you made an enormous assumption. Anyone reading this can ignore what's quoted above, because it contains nothing more than an assumption...no facts.

Quote:
Now under federal law you’re not supposed to carry a gun on federal land (that’s changed but not at the time of the shooting)
1) You assume it was a Federal Park which at the time would have been illegal to carry, but it was a National Forest (Tonto National Forest), which has never been off limits to carrying a weapon (well, except states where they ban it, Arizona did not). If it were, then most hunters in the past 100 years would have been committing crimes when they hunt Federal land.

2) Even if what you said is correct (and it is not), it would have no relevance in the case. He would have been fined for that particular charge and it would have been dealt with separately from his self defense case.

3) Make sure you know a law before you quote it. It has never been illegal to carry on Federal land in general. Only certain types of Federal land has it ever been illegal. In this case, it was perfectly legal, even at the time. (This is part of the ignorance I mentioned earlier.)

Quote:
How many times have we heard of someone knowing they have a gun and being aggressive when they normally wouldn’t?
Making more assumptions, I see. Is this what happened in the Fish case? Oh, you don't know? Ok, we can ignore it then!

Quote:
There are a lot of dead spots in this case because there is only one witness.
Hey, something I agree with. Let's remember that the initial investigator, however, had determined that it was a legal shoot. It was an anti-gun DA that forced this case to trial.

Quote:
The gun was mention but no mods are mentioned and Mr. Fish was a gun enthusiast (read that) so I am sure like the rest of us he did something to the gun
Wow, this is one of the biggest assumptions you've made so far! Let's analyze this.

1) You ASSUME that gun enthusiasts tinker with their guns. Well, I'm one that doesn't. There are many others that don't. The information we have (which is more than your assumption) shows that his gun wasn't modified in anyway.

2) Given the facts of the case, and the DA with a chip on his shoulder, IF Fish had modded his gun, with almost certainty, he would have used it against him. He used the fact that Fish had 50 guns at home (irrelevant to the case), had 4 types of ammo in his van (irrelevant to the case), and targets with bullet holes, in his van (irrelevant to the case) to paint him as a gun crazy killer. If there had been a modded trigger on Fish's firearm, we can logically conclude (no assumption needed) the DA would have used that against him.

Quote:
no they don't because they don't know you and your ability’s.
This is irrelevant. If they thought it was a good idea, they would recommend it. Ask Mas Ayoob if he carries a modded trigger. Ask any expert, who is a master with their firearm if they carry a modded trigger. The safe bet is all of them will say it's stock.

Quote:
if this is the case then custom guns would be safe queens because heaven forbid you should have to use it in a SD situation.
Huh? This is a really ignorant statement. A custom gun, by definition is still a gun built by an FFL licensed to make guns. If they built a custom gun made for carry, you can bet that they have set it to a point where it is safe from a legal standpoint, and recommend that you don't mod it further.

Quote:
I have a gun digest book wrote by Massad Ayoob and in there he mentions that a lot of pistol shooter on the IPSC use there every day carry guns in the competitions and I am sure they have mods and they carry them for SD, they don’t seem to worry about it
So, you ASSUME they have mods you mean? Also, I've read that particular book several times and I'm pretty sure he mentions it with regard to IDPA, which has very strict guidelines on guns you can use. Modded triggers aren't allowed in most every case. Even if it is IPSC (I'm too lazy to find my books since they're packed away from my recent move) he mentions, you realize there are several classes of guns. No one with a racegun would use it for carry. Also, several people use their stock guns in IPSC because they want to practice with their carry gun. In other words, just because a gun is used in IPSC does not automatically conclude it is modded. More logical fallacies, brought to you by, barstoolguru. Again, your statement is loaded with assumptions, and light on facts.

Before I had written this, I had thought about something. I'm thinking that most people don't realize that you will likely face a civil trial after your criminal trial. There are a bunch of differences in these, but two are really important for people in SD situations. The first is in what happens once a decision against you is made, the second is in how those decisions are made.

In a criminal trial, if you are found guilty, you will spend time in prison, have to pay attorney and court fees, as well as pay fines. Time in prison varies with charge, as do the fines. Usually the fines are capped.

In a civil trial, if you are found liable, you won't spend time in prison, but there is no cap (this depends on the state, actually) on how much you might have to pay out. In many cases, it could be several hundred thousand, up to several million.

How a decision is made is really the crux here. In a criminal trial, you are tried by a jury of your peers, and you must be found not guilty if the jury believes there is any sort of reasonable doubt. Essentially, if a reasonable person could believe in the possibility that you didn't commit the crime, you should be acquitted. The Judge has little to do with your case, except as a mediator. He can, however, sway the jury at times by deciding what the jury can and cannot use as evidence. (This is something that did happen to Fish).

In a civil trial, it's much worse for you. It is you against the complainant. Your verdict in your criminal trial has absolutely zero relevance in the civil trial. The whole idea of a jury of your peer is thrown out. The decision is made by a Judge. The whole idea of beyond a reasonable doubt, is thrown out. It's based SOLELY on preponderance of evidence. Meaning, if the opposing side has more evidence that you are liable than you have of you being not liable, regardless of what that evidence is, you will be found liable. It is MUCH harder to win a civil case...ask OJ Simpson who was found Not Guilty in his criminal trial but found liable in the civil trial.

What this means is, that modded trigger is evidence that is stacked against you. Even if you can justify it, it can still be used against you. Especially if you have an anti-gun, activist Judge making the decision. Civil cases are usually more private and we don't know exactly what happened in them in many cases, so we will likely not see publicly the results of very many of these.

The instructor who taught my CCW told us a story of a 60 year old woman who shot and killed an intruder. After emptying her retirement fund to fight a conviction, she was found not guilty. She didn't realize she still had a civil trial. She was sued by the family of the person she shot. She was out of money, and couldn't fight the lawsuit effectively. The preponderance of evidence showed she was liable for this person's death.

Like I said, do what you want to do at your own risk. I'm trying to help people not go through things like others have gone through. I also ask that if you wish to have a discussion effectively, refrain from the use of so much assumption. Also, it's a good idea to have a good grasp on the facts, which in the case of the Fish case, you most certainly did not.

I'm also adding to my challenge from earlier. If you find me a single expert in the field of self defense who either:

1) says it's ok to carry a modded gun.

or

2) carry's a modded gun (as in, below recommended factory specs)

I'll leave this forum and never post again.

I'm very confident you simply won't find it because they know how stupid it is to tempt fate.
Gaerek is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 05:32 PM   #58
barstoolguru
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2011
Posts: 180
Quote:
Don’t mess with your carry guns, its risky enough to defend yourself. Its patently stupid to install a trigger that maybe, possibly, on a good day, could improve your aim by 1/2 inch at 25 yards all while creating the opportunity for the DA to ask... "Did this guy want to shoot someone someday and prepared for it with this tricked-out pistol?"

answers to you question is yes I want pin point accuracy so when I shoot it is a kill shot and not a miss to injure a bystander and the second part show me one MFG that stamps or writes on their packaging that the product they sell is for target shooting only. The Glock store has no disclaimer as being illegal just that they are not responsible for injury
barstoolguru is offline  
Old December 5, 2012, 02:00 PM   #59
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,701
Here is a question that has not been asked;

How would the prosecutor know my gun has a trigger job?

A gun in evidence may have been test fired, I do not know that the dissassembly and inspection of your gun would prove anything. That would be a case of evidence tampering.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 5, 2012, 03:21 PM   #60
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,188
Quote:
Here is a question that has not been asked;

How would the prosecutor know my gun has a trigger job?

A gun in evidence may have been test fired, I do not know that the dissassembly and inspection of your gun would prove anything. That would be a case of evidence tampering.
Why do you think they take the gun in for evidence? To see if that is indeed the weapon used. Upon that inspection they're knowledgeable in firearms and their factory trigger weight I'm sure. They do it for a living. They can tell a light trigger from a not so light trigger.

Why test the trigger? In case it was an accidental discharge.


That's a weird question to ask man...lol
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 05:53 PM   #61
tcttcf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2012
Posts: 6
Glockd do not like trigger jobs

At all, get used to the trigger pull. You can do a trigger job on a glock but that ios better left to an experienced gunsmith.
tcttcf is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:06 PM   #62
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,399
There's a great deal of good information here, but it's gone off track a few times, so we're going to close things while it's still civil.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12490 seconds with 9 queries