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Old November 30, 2012, 12:22 PM   #51
WildBill45
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You cannot kill someone over property ... PERIOD!

Quote:
Sounds like you agree that we shouldn't give up the right to defend ourselves?
I have not said this, nor do I think anyone else has.

What I did try to get across, and some may have not have picked up on it is:

You cannot kill someone over property ... PERIOD!

Theft is NOT a death penalty crime!

If someone is threatening you with serious bodily injury or death you have the absolute right to defend yourself.

You don't want cops, citizens, or others killing your son or daughter because they may have made a bad decision to steal something. There are appropriate responses for that crime, and execution is not one of them.

I have been threatened with deadly force, and I have arrested folks for theft, and there is not a correlation whatsoever...

If you are unlucky enough to have someone enter your residence and threaten or take actions to ... seriously injure you, or kill you, a shotgun is a viable weapon, which is the starting point of this exercise...
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Old November 30, 2012, 01:10 PM   #52
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Thanks for the video.
Good, sound advice.
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Old November 30, 2012, 06:37 PM   #53
WildBill45
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Quote:
Thanks for the video.
Good, sound advice.
Thanks...

Everyone has something to share...
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Old November 30, 2012, 06:46 PM   #54
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Good video. I appreciate your insights and the effort you put into sharing them with the shooting community.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:51 AM   #55
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Quote:
You cannot kill someone over property ... PERIOD!

Theft is NOT a death penalty crime!

If someone is threatening you with serious bodily injury or death you have the absolute right to defend yourself.
Most intruders enter your home to steal your property. The reason you can shoot is because the law recognizes that an intruder in your home represents a danger to you. Stealing your property is the nicest thing he's there to do.

Are you suggesting that the invasion of your home isn't sufficient cause for the use of deadly force, and that the intruder must display additional hostile intent before it's justified?

Quote:
Theft is NOT a death penalty crime!
Acting within the law when using deadly force is called self defense. It's not the imposition of the death penalty and it's not acting as judge, jury or executioner.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:42 PM   #56
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Take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw, and consider investing in the DVD. It isn't a substitute for a hands-on class from one of the top tier shotgun trainers (Louis Awerbuck, Clint Smith, John Farnam, Tom Givens etc) but it's a good introduction to the subject.
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Old December 1, 2012, 01:29 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill45
You cannot kill someone over property ... PERIOD!
You may find Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property interesting.

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.42.00.html

It seems to contradict your statement.
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Old December 1, 2012, 02:40 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_auto
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill45
You cannot kill someone over property ... PERIOD!
You may find Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property interesting.

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.42.00.html

It seems to contradict your statement.
Not entirely. If one reads the statute carefully he will note that the use of lethal force in connection with the defense of property is justified in only certain fairly narrow circumstances and if certain conditions can be demonstrated to have been satisfied. Texas law is uniquely favorable to the defender, but it does not provide a license to kill.

And let's not let this thread deteriorate into a debate about Texas law.
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Old December 1, 2012, 04:00 PM   #59
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Thank goodness someone has a voice of reason.

Where is the sense of law and compassion with some people? This shoot period, regardless of circumstance, is a mental sickness.
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Old December 1, 2012, 04:50 PM   #60
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On the streets as a cop there is

Legally right, and there is morally right, and if you have the time to choose the choice has already been made...

Bad choices takes you to the Criminal side, and then you live with them ... they won't have to invade, as now they are your roommate...

It is easy to take down, building takes a little effort. Some appear to only take down here, but there are so many more that build...

Be safe, make good choices, and happy shooting over the Holidays!!!
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Old December 2, 2012, 03:06 PM   #61
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Quote:
What I did try to get across, and some may have not have picked up on it is:

You cannot kill someone over property ... PERIOD!

Theft is NOT a death penalty crime!

If someone is threatening you with serious bodily injury or death you have the absolute right to defend yourself.

You don't want cops, citizens, or others killing your son or daughter because they may have made a bad decision to steal something. There are appropriate responses for that crime, and execution is not one of them.

I have been threatened with deadly force, and I have arrested folks for theft, and there is not a correlation whatsoever...
I agree with most of what you're saying. I think people are a little too bloodthirsty. And I always cringe when I hear people with these "Can I shoot?" questions. If you have to ask, you shouldn't shoot.

But theft and burglary are two different things. You don't know that burglars are there just to steal something. And you have good reason to believe that they are at least armed with a crowbar, screwdriver, knife, or some other burglary tool.

Your comment about sons and daughters- I have two sons who are bigger than I am. If someone that size broke into my home I would likely shoot, and I'd expect others to do the same. I've told my kids this, repeatedly. Hopefully, they have the sense by now not to break into people's homes. If they're not any smarter than that, there are plenty of other things in this world that can kill them, too.

Life is harder. It's harder when you're stupid. If you're stupid enough, life's shorter, too.

I do agree with your assessment of the shooting in MN. That was murder plain and simple. Similar to the Ersland shooting. Once the threat has been neutralized, there is no reason to shoot again. Call the police, whether it's Thanksgiving, Christmas, or St. Patrick's Day.

There is the small issue about your comment about the death penalty. Self defense has nothing to do with punishment- they are two different things. Even if something is a death penalty crime, it doesn't mean you could carry it out as a punishment, any more than you could fine someone for jaywalking.
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Old December 2, 2012, 09:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
There is the small issue about your comment about the death penalty. Self defense has nothing to do with punishment- they are two different things. Even if something is a death penalty crime, it doesn't mean you could carry it out as a punishment, any more than you could fine someone for jaywalking.
You missed the point, this is not what I said...
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Old December 3, 2012, 07:49 AM   #63
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For the last 30+ years, I've used the same shotgun for my primary HD weapon. This same shotgun and I also have countless hours together hunting and drilling. I know it, confident with it, can operate it in low light conditions and have spent the time shooting it with defensive loads so as to know what patterns best for my home situation.

I pray my shotgun will remain only for hunting and I can pass it down to the kids.

My handguns would be what I would grab first as they are usually kept the closest to me but their sole purpose is to escort me to the shotgun if at all possible.

Last edited by shortwave; December 3, 2012 at 08:38 AM.
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Old December 3, 2012, 05:41 PM   #64
WildBill45
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Quote:
For the last 30+ years, I've used the same shotgun for my primary HD weapon. This same shotgun and I also have countless hours together hunting and drilling. I know it, confident with it, can operate it in low light conditions and have spent the time shooting it with defensive loads so as to know what patterns best for my home situation.
This is exactly why the shotgun is so good for home defense ... because most American boys grew up with a scattergun in their lap!!! It is natural like throwing a baseball to them...
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:13 AM   #65
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Oh, I hate to be the stat guy but I doubt that most grew up with shotguns. I would alter the statement to stay that many grew up with the gun and thus being familiar with it, might stick with it.

I do think specific shotgun SD training is useful though. Even if you did use it in the field. You probably didn't pie around corners to sneak up on a duck.
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Old December 5, 2012, 02:53 PM   #66
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Quote:
I do think specific shotgun SD training is useful though. Even if you did use it in the field. You probably didn't pie around corners to sneak up on a duck.
Absolutely!

This is why I feel the niche of the shotgun for HD is purely defensive. If I need to sneak and peek I am using a handgun.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:59 PM   #67
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In a 10x10 room I am far more effective with a handgun than with a shotgun.
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Old December 7, 2012, 03:53 PM   #68
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Quote:
I do think specific shotgun SD training is useful though.
...and naturally, the same holds true when choosing a handgun for SD as well.

Playing Rambo through a woods shooting cans or target shooting with a handgun will familiarize you with your handgun but is NOT the same as SD training.

Last edited by shortwave; December 7, 2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old December 7, 2012, 04:22 PM   #69
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No pistol grips

I watched the first and second videos I generally agree.

one thing I didn't see in either video, unless I missed it, is the importance of a shoulder stock. Shotguns without a shoulder stock are not good for anything IMO, you need to be able to aim the stotgun. If you think you need a shotgun with just a pisol grip then you really need a pistol.
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Old December 8, 2012, 12:25 AM   #70
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Theft is NOT a death penalty crime!

The death penalty is a state punishment. Self-defense is what civilians can do under certain circumstances.

A home invader probably won't yell out "I'm just here for the TV!"
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:16 AM   #71
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Theories of the legalities of lethal force are not relevant to the tactical use of shotguns. Let's stay on the topic.

If you want to debate whether you want to kill someone for your TV, go to L and CR and you might study up on the history of the law.
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Old December 10, 2012, 09:44 PM   #72
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As noted, some are getting too off topic.

In regard to SD training ... most cops do much of such training, but just like martial arts some trainers and some others taught theories that are static, and based on CYA principles of their department, city or state. There is no magic in training if you don't have the skill sets to apply the theories. You can teach a dog calculus all year long, but never a building will he build.

Shooting cans, moving targets, and learning balance by any means DOES make you better at SD... Doing training without those skills is a waste of time. A fighter is a fighter, and the skills are the same be it a sword, karate, or guns ... make no mistake on this. Joe Desk jockey cannot learn to play a piano, do a waltz, knock out multiple opponents, or take on bad guys in his house with WHATEVER GUN, without the skill sets that takes years to perfect ... there is no easy path. Talk is cheap, show me how you shoot under stress, real stress where life and death is at stake, and then lets talk about all these theories and how they improve you as an individual shooter.

Point being ... take your classes, but train, train and train again IN THE REAL WORLD, WIND, SNOW, RAIN, INDOORS, OUTDOORS, DARK, SUNLIGHT, CANS, TARGETS, RABBITS AND DOVE, BUT SHOOT!!! Then learn balance and how to move, control your heart rate under duress, impervious to stress while hitting targets, and if needed, take on the bad guy with the gun not working, or you wounded or injured...

Do you hunt and can see in 3D where the heart lies as the body moves? Most training uses flat targets facing you square … this doesn’t happen often in the real world. Animals or people do flight or fight, and they don’t do it flat, they are down charging or running away, or angled coming at you or away. Can you hit the heart in all these angles, distances, and timing needs … this is what can shooting does, and hunting does, and other real world practice of field use does. Can you shoot while breathing heavily, which is just what you will be doing when the … Hits the fan! Life and death, and down and dirty is nothing like training, nothing. The training just keeps the skills sharp, IF, the skills come naturally in the first place, and they damn won’t come naturally from taking a training course and going back home to the computer job. Natural reactions take years of repeat training, muscle memory is key, not mind memory. Keep it simple, do you have a safety or do you not? Whichever it is, practice with that on or off ALWAYS. You do as you train under stress!!! This goes for shotguns, handguns, or rifles or bows.

What gun you use, wherever it is, or what time it is, DOES NOT MATTER.

Back on point, a shotgun is a great choice for home defense made even better when you have the skill sets to make it work to the full potential of the design!

YOU CAN SURVIVE, OR YOU CANNOT... BAD GUYS TRAIN ALL DAY IN PRISON FOR COPS, YOU, AND OTHER VICTIMS!!!!
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Last edited by WildBill45; December 11, 2012 at 08:38 PM. Reason: add a few paragraphs or so ... add a few more words, a few more words, and more
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