The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 1, 2012, 09:02 PM   #1
ks_wayward_son
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2007
Posts: 252
CZ, bring back the full Kadet pistol! (And other musings)

I've been having an itch to buy a combat-style .22 for plinking and range practice, and have found myself gravitating toward either a 1911 style or the CZ models. I know that there is the Kadet conversion, and I have a SP-01, however the dedicated .22 pistol would be awesome in the CZ platform. It would appear that I am a decade or so late! I can't remember if I saw a post on TFL in 2000, or another forum when I was doing research but at that time a fellow was able to buy one for 200.00, and another for 300.00 or so. Now, since the model has been discontinued for some time, the price has skyrocketed to 700.00+. Would it be wrong to assume that more people than I would be willing to purchase the dedicated Kadet if it was being produced again? (Hopefully for less than 700.00 though).

Now, to perhaps discuss the Kadet conversion itself and 1911 platforms:


A.

For those of you who have the Kadet conversion, how much (if any) fitting was required to fit the standard 75 frame? I am somewhat leery of this endeavour, but it can't be that difficult.


B.

Also, has anyone had much experience with the RIA/Armscor 1911 XT .22? I really like the all-steel composition, but I still have to watch some Youtube videos to see what its about... I'm not sure Im digging the design. It probably is very accurate, but the whole cut-out; M-9 lookalike deal is different.

C.

Also, I am not discounting the Marvel conversion for my Springer Mil-Spec. But, again, I'm not certain about how much fitting is required.

D.

There is the possibility of buying a completely unfinished frame (i.e. an Essex (sp)?) and a conversion slide and building one from scratch, but I don't have much advanced gunsmithing experience; probably pretty apparent since I'm questioning the minor fitting of conversion slides ). Brownell's does have a step by step procedure on their website for building 1911's, but boy it sure seems like a daunting task.

I know there are quite a few parts to this post, but advice on one or all points is very much appreciated. Alas, if CZ only started producing the Kadet again at a reasonable price point, these questions would probably be for naught.
ks_wayward_son is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 09:13 PM   #2
XtremeRevolution
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2012
Posts: 123
I ordered the RIA 1911 .22 after 2 months of research. I placed the order last week on Wednesday, so I should have it some time this coming week. I will let you know how it goes, but from what I am reading, it is the best 1911 .22 for under $500. It accepts kimber .22 conversion mags as well, so I bought two 14 round mags.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
XtremeRevolution is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 12:50 AM   #3
ks_wayward_son
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2007
Posts: 252
Alright, a complete turnaround from what I had been planning all along. Time will tell if it was a mistake, but it was probably an impulse buy to say the least. I just found out from slickguns.com that Palmetto State Armory is having a weekend special for the GSG 1911 22 for 269.00, extra mags are 26.99 so I picked an extra one up as well. They also advertised free shipping over 50.00, but there was an additional cost of 7.00 for ground shipping. I bet its to cover insurance/general firearms requirements. All inclusive, the order was 303.00, plus probably 15.00 for my transfer. 318.00 total for the GSG and an extra mag. Less than Bud's 319.00, which still is one of the better prices on the net. Like I said, a definite impulse buy but just the same a cool new toy to try.
ks_wayward_son is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 06:55 AM   #4
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
A.

For those of you who have the Kadet conversion, how much (if any) fitting was required to fit the standard 75 frame? I am somewhat leery of this endeavour, but it can't be that difficult.
I spent maybe, 20 min stoning mine to get it to fit.
Had I known then, what I know now.....(how often in life to you hear/say that eh?).

#1 - it's not difficult in the least. If all you want is a "blaster" you could probably fit it in 5 to 10 min.

#2 - Ever hear/read the raves about a "hand fitted" gun?
If you take your time and really, really, really take your time fitting it - the conversion can be a very precision firearm - right on the same par w/a very expensive target pistol.

My eternal regret is that I never bought a Champion trigger set and another Kadet conversion for my CZ75b.
That would have been one rock and roll Bullseye gun.
While I really despise competition......the idea of seeing some discouraged faces on some "equipment snobs" has a lot of appeal to me...
Hal is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 05:32 PM   #5
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,542
Just a couple passes with a file for my 2003 75bd.

Why not get one for your Sp01?

As for detailed fitting, I don't see what difference it makes with the Kadet. The sights are fixed with the barrel and don't move, similar to the Ruger.
chris in va is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 05:43 PM   #6
tekarra
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2007
Posts: 1,118
It only took a couple of passes with a file to fit my Kadet Kit to a 75B. Not difficult at all, just work slow and check often. My Kit is very accurate to boot.
tekarra is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 05:55 PM   #7
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,972
I own the CZ Kadet, the RIA XT-22 and the Kimber Rimfire Target and they are so far superior to the GSG it's like different universes.

The least expensive of the three is the RIA and it may be my favorite followed by the Kadet.

The weight, balance and trigger of the RIA XT-22 are so right.



__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 05:56 PM   #8
Walt Sherrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 4,453
I didn't have to fit it to my 85 Combat, but would have had to do so for a couple other 75Bs I had at the time. It shot (and shoots) so well on the 85 Combat that I didn't bother to fit it to the other guns. (Doing so would NOT have harmed it's effectiveness with the 85 C.)

Mine shot as well as my beautiful stainless Ruger MKII Target Competition (long, slab-sided barrel) that seemed redundant, so traded the Ruger for a .45 Witness Sport Long Slide (the predecessor to their Match and Limited line.)


.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; December 3, 2012 at 09:04 AM.
Walt Sherrill is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 07:46 AM   #9
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
As for detailed fitting, I don't see what difference it makes with the Kadet. The sights are fixed with the barrel and don't move, similar to the Ruger.
Chris,
It's all about consistency.
The more even you get the fit, the more consistent the action is going to work.
Hal is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 09:20 AM   #10
Walt Sherrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 4,453
Quote:
It's all about consistency.
The more even you get the fit, the more consistent the action is going to work.
That may be less true with the Kadet Kit design than some kits, as the "fitting" process mostly has to do with getting the lower lugs slightly narrowed to allow the kit to fit on the frame

The barrel itself is fixed to the slide and the slide is held relatively securely by the slide stop and doesn't move much (if at all) when the weapon fires -- just a small section on the slide at the back moves. It is, in effect, a fixed barrel system. The barrel and the sights never change their alignment, so accuracy should be fine unless you're using a Ransom Rest.

In my experience, kits that fit one gun, when moved to another, don't demonstrate a noticeable change in accuracy or consistency -- but it could be that my experience isn't broad enough.

My Kadet Kit shot so well when mounted on my 85 Combat with which I first used it I realized that I wasn't going to shoot it in another gun. It worked on the 85 Combat frame without fitting, straight out of the box, and some people have had similar experience with their 75Bs,

My kit would NOT work with a couple of different pre-B 75 guns, but that was due to the fact that the pre-B hammers (on my early pre-Bs) were too wide to fit in the slot at the rear of the Kadet Kit slide, which kept the hammer from hitting the firing pint. The Kit would have require some tweaks to work on the 75B SA I had at the time, and it wasn't even close to fitting on a number of different CZ clones for a number of different reasons.

,

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; December 3, 2012 at 02:21 PM.
Walt Sherrill is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 11:25 AM   #11
Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2000
Posts: 3,664
My Kadet Kit required no fitting on both my 75B, and PCR. It fits perfectly.
__________________
Pilot
Pilot is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 12:35 PM   #12
tinkersdelight
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2012
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6
Where did you acquire? I'm interested
__________________
"When civilized men can no longer stand the horrors of war, they will be conquered by uncivilized men who can." -unknown
tinkersdelight is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 12:35 PM   #13
whippoorwill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2008
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
Posts: 521
CZ still offers the Kadet pistol. Got mine about a year ago. Actually, it says Kadet 2 on the slide.
whippoorwill is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 12:59 PM   #14
XtremeRevolution
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2012
Posts: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microgunner View Post
I own the CZ Kadet, the RIA XT-22 and the Kimber Rimfire Target and they are so far superior to the GSG it's like different universes.

The least expensive of the three is the RIA and it may be my favorite followed by the Kadet.

The weight, balance and trigger of the RIA XT-22 are so right.



Glad to hear that. My XT22 is in transit. I ordered it last week on Wednesday along with two 14 round mags and can't wait to try it out.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
XtremeRevolution is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 02:41 PM   #15
Walt Sherrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 4,453
Quote:
CZ still offers the Kadet pistol. Got mine about a year ago. Actually, it says Kadet 2 on the slide.
I think CZ just announced, in recent weeks, that the Kadet pistol (not the kit) would be dropped. (Apparently, the demand was for the Kit and not for the complete pistol.)

Make sense, actually, as you can buy a kit for a 9mm or .40 CZ 75B, but you can't buy a slide in 9mm for the Kadet Kit -- even though the frames of the 9mm and the .22 versions are identical.
Walt Sherrill is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 04:11 PM   #16
XtremeRevolution
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2012
Posts: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill View Post
I think CZ just announced, in recent weeks, that the Kadet pistol (not the kit) would be dropped. (Apparently, the demand was for the Kit and not for the complete pistol.)

Make sense, actually, as you can buy a kit for a 9mm or .40 CZ 75B, but you can't buy a slide in 9mm for the Kadet Kit -- even though the frames of the 9mm and the .22 versions are identical.
It doesn't help that the Kadet pistol was more expensive than a cz-75 sp-01.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
XtremeRevolution is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 04:40 PM   #17
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
That may be less true with the Kadet Kit design than some kits, as the "fitting" process mostly has to do with getting the lower lugs slightly narrowed to allow the kit to fit on the frame

The barrel itself is fixed to the slide and the slide is held relatively securely by the slide stop and doesn't move much
The slide on my Kadet conversion isn't fixed to the barrel assembly at all.
It rides on the inside rails of the gun and moves back and forth as the gun fires.
The barrel assembly is held in place via the slide stop.
Here's one pictured with the slide all the way back.



Since I've never heard or read anywhere that a tight fit of any moving parts does anything but aid accuracy - given the choice, I'll go with tight fit.
The nice part about at least some of the conversion kits is that you do get to make a choice.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CZkadet.jpg (86.4 KB, 73 views)
Hal is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 05:31 PM   #18
Walt Sherrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 4,453
Quote:
The slide on my Kadet conversion isn't fixed to the barrel assembly at all.
It rides on the inside rails of the gun and moves back and forth as the gun fires.
The barrel assembly is held in place via the slide stop.
Here's one pictured with the slide all the way back.
Bad choice of words on my part in my response, above... (I called the barrel assembly the slide, and mentioned a separate part that moved... that's what YOU called the slide.)

The barrel assembly is held in place by the slide stop AND the front of the gun's frame rails. That pretty secure. The rigidity is further enhanced by the slide assembly. In effect, the whole assembly is held in position by both the slide and the frame. The slide stop prevents both vertical and, coincidentally, lateral movement. It's an interesting design.

Tightly fitting the barrel doesn't really do that much. No reason not to do that, but a LOOSELY fit barrel won't perform much differently than a tightly fit one, because when everything is in place and the "slide" is closed (as before a shot) there's simply not much possibility of movement. The slide stop, I think, is the key: it doesn't allow the rear of the barrel to move much vertically or from side to side.

If the lug through which the slide stop slides is sloppy or worn, you could see some movement and that would degrade accuracy. But if it's snug, the barrel just can't move that much (if at all.)
Walt Sherrill is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 09:15 PM   #19
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
No reason not to do that, but a LOOSELY fit barrel won't perform much differently than a tightly fit one, because when everything is in place and the "slide" is closed (as before a shot) there's simply not much possibility of movement
I'm not at all convinced it wouldn't make a difference.
If you feel that strongly that it wouldn't matter, why not just take yours and loosen it up?
Hal is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 10:28 PM   #20
Walt Sherrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 4,453
Quote:
If you feel that strongly that it wouldn't matter, why not just take yours and loosen it up?
Why would I do anything? What's to be achieved?

If my analysis of how the kit locks up and gets it's rigidity is correct, the type of change you suggest wouldn't LOOSEN IT UP or otherwise affect accuracy. It would just be removing metal for no reason...

My current Kadet Kit was not my first Kadet Kit. An earlier Kadet Kit (bought from the same local deal) would NOT drop in that same gun.

We didn't know, back then -- late 1990's -- that some fitting might be required; the materials that came with the kit then didn't address fitting, as is now the case. (The dealer had their gunsmith look at it, and he didn't know what to do.)

The dealer sent the Kit back to CZ and got another; that is the one I still use today. The only change I've made to it was to install the newer design firing pin, which CZ sent, free of charge.

The replacement unit dropped right in, and with the kit installed and the slide stop in place, it seems to be a very tightly-fitted assembly. You can't move things around as you might expect. The slide stop and the front of the frame seems to holds thing pretty securely in place. (In fact, if there was any slop in the barrel positioning, I think we'd see some feeding issues, or shaving of bullets, and that doesn't seem to happen.)

Your analysis would suggest that all "loose" assemblies -- like mine -- should have material added to the lugs to improve accuracy. Have you heard of anyone doing that? I haven't. Perhaps that would help, but it generally doesn't seen necessary. And, if my analysis is correct, it would be a waste of effort.

Perhaps I'm wrong -- but somebody will have to use more than theoretical arguments to make/prove their point.

My experience would suggest that there is a good bit of variance in the dimensions of the barrel lugs of the Kadet Kits, which probably aren't made on CNC equipment like the CZ frames.

.
Walt Sherrill is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 07:55 AM   #21
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
Perhaps I'm wrong -- but somebody will have to use more than theoretical arguments to make/prove their point
And you have the perfect opportunity to do just that.
Grab a file and have at it.
You the one that insists the fit doesn't matter, not me.

BTW care to see what CZ has to say about the fit?
This is what the kadet manual has to say about fitting.

"To ensure correct functioning and high accuracy of fire, it is necessary to fit the CZ 75 KADET adapter with minimal clearances in the guide rails in the pistol on which the adapter will be used. The actual procedures are d escribed below."
Page 24 of the manual.

Matter of fact ..here's a link to the manual.
https://czusamedia.s3.amazonaws.com/...Z_75_Kadet.pdf
Hal is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 09:52 AM   #22
Walt Sherrill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 4,453
Hard to argue with the manual, isn't it? Perhaps there's no reason to try...

I was having difficulty trying to account for the excellent accuracy of Kadet Kits that didn't need fitting, that just dropped in and which continued to work well when moved from one gun to another.

As we discussed this topic, you focused on barrel lug assembly fit to the frame while I focused how the front of the barrel assembly was controlled and how the slide stop restrained movement -- we were both focused on Kadet Kit to frame attachment but disagreed on the controlling mechanism.

After examining my Kadet Kit again, I think we're both wrong.

I think we've both overlooked the real source of the accuracy in these units: the barrel assembly and the sights are a locked, single unit; they can't move apart or be changed during the firing cycle . As long as you use the sights, the gun should hit where you point it, regardless of how the Kadet Kit unit attaches to the frame, or how tightly/snugly it is attached!

I think THAT design feature -- locked barrel/sight design -- explains why the Kit works so well, regardless of how tightly it is fit to the gun.
Walt Sherrill is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 12:14 PM   #23
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Walt,
As much as I'd like to agree w/you - I still feel that a tighter fit is an aid to consistent function.
The CZ manual appears to support that - IMHO.

On the fixed barrel/sights part....I honestly don't know.

My Ciener fixed sight conversion - seen below on a Kimber Target just edges out my Kadet. Not by much & not alll the time. I have to believe that's more because of the excellent trigger on the Kimber than anything else.
& those two nickled bad boys on the left and right will eat any Kadet out there for lunch - despite having the rear sights on the slide.

Another gun. legedary for it's accuracy - the Colt Woodsman also had the sights attached to the slide.

However......a common theme among pure target pistols seems to be the fixed sight/fixed barrel.

Bottom line would be - while I don't honestly know - I would tend to think you're right in that regard.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SANY1407.JPG (174.1 KB, 46 views)
Hal is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 01:23 PM   #24
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,542
Maybe the action of the trigger being pulled and hammer falling would tweak the kit enough to throw off shots slightly if it was looser on the frame?

But anyway it's been a great kit and NEVER jams. Kinda scary actually. Mine is drilled to accept scope rings, makes the gun absurdly easy to shoot with a dot on top.
chris in va is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 03:07 PM   #25
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Did it come drilled?
That's pretty cool if they're doing that.
Hal is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13887 seconds with 10 queries