The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 28, 2012, 05:14 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneye
Closest 'police' here is a minimum of 15 minutes, and realistically more like 30...
Which does not change the basic fact that if you enter your house and there is an unknown number of bag guys willing to engage you inside, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 05:21 PM   #27
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,904
Quote:
Closest 'police' here is a minimum of 15 minutes, and realistically more like 30...
Bleeding to death takes considerably less time than that.

If I do get shot or knifed by an intruder, I want it to happen when emergency services are less than two seconds from slamming through my front door -- not two hours away.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 08:48 AM   #28
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,317
Sorry...

I am simply not calling the 'local' constabulary for an 'open door'...

"911, what's your emergency?"

"My door is open..."

"Well, maybe after our two officers get done directing traffic at the fatal accident on the highway, and the barn fire two towns over, I'll have one swing by..."

Not all localities here have 'police', and most people I know like it that way...We have no town police, the constable has been relegated to opening and closing the gate on the town beach, and the closest state barracks is 20 miles on back roads...We do occasionally pay the next town up to do 'traffic patrols' when school opens, just to remind people to slow down..."Sheriffs" around here run traffic duty on construction projects, and are process servers...

I guess I am glad that many of you live where cops can quickly come to run through your house because you left your door open, but around here they have better things to do with my tax dollars...

If I become a statistic, so be it...
Salmoneye is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 11:25 AM   #29
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneye
...If I become a statistic, so be it...
Your call, and that's fine with me.

But for anyone who is concerned about his responsibilities to his family and leaving his family without his continued protection and support, there is no escaping the basic fact that:
Quote:
...if you enter your house and there is an unknown number of bag guys willing to engage you inside, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 01:16 PM   #30
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
But for anyone who is concerned about his responsibilities to his family and leaving his family without his continued protection and support, there is no escaping the basic fact that:
One should not drive a tractor alone...

One should not use a chainsaw with no one near to phone for help...

One should not swim alone...

And on, and on...

The fact that all of these are more likely to get you killed than a pack of 'Bad Guys' in your house doesn't stop most of us from doing these mundane tasks on a daily basis...
Salmoneye is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:05 PM   #31
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,904
One thing that always fascinates me about this stuff is that those who have a higher level of training have much more robust understanding of how to do it safely... and also of how & when not to do it.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:11 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneye View Post
... doesn't stop most of us from doing these mundane tasks on a daily basis...
No one is trying to talk you into being prudent. We're providing the information for those who care sufficiently about their welfare and the welfare of their families to be interested in the tactically preferred methods of dealing with a situation.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:15 PM   #33
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,194
Quote:
I disagree with that. I'm making sure I have a bonafide emergency before I call the police. If everyone called the police every time they left the door open the police would learn that you cry wolf and might not come so quick one time when you really need them.
Additionally you must live in areas where police respond to that sort of thing. Many don't. When I lived in one of the less attractive cities neighboring LA, police would have laughed at a call like that.
zincwarrior is online now  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:25 PM   #34
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,904
Quote:
Additionally you must live in areas where police respond to that sort of thing. Many don't.
Hm. Every LEO I've talked to tells me that when someone calls the cops and says, "My front door is open and I think there may be an intruder in my home," they smile at the radio. Then they drive fast, lights on, grinning like maniacs the whole way. Why? Because it's a high-adrenalin, fun call, that's why! LEOs live for this sort of thing. Calls like that are why they got into LE work in the first place.

Obviously, they'll get a bit tired of you, and won't respond quickly or maybe at all, if you call them more often than "very rarely."

Then again, if you're stupid enough to leave your front door wide open behind you more often than "very rarely," well ...

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:33 PM   #35
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,194
Yes I've only left my door open once, fortunately while walking the dogs and not with the dogs there to get out.

I did freak out a little and stepped into the doorway and let the dogs loose. None of them did anything unusual so I relaxed and check the house out.

Currently I work in one town and live with the family in another. When I return to the one location by myself with the big dog I'll let him go in first and stay in the doorway for a minute, getting bearings on if anything has occurred.
zincwarrior is online now  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:37 PM   #36
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,904
Yeah, dogs make a big difference in threat assessment. An unexpected open door without a dog could be anything -- but if you have a territorial dog that's not giving the alert, that's a lot safer of a situation to walk into.

Dogs aren't (necessarily) great security, but they're lovely alarm systems and especially in a situation like this.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 02:44 PM   #37
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,194
Especially if they are the dread combination of 1) hyperalert sniffing machine wiener dog; and 2) Mountain dog that responds to noises from blocks away.
zincwarrior is online now  
Old November 30, 2012, 03:03 PM   #38
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
No one is trying to talk you into being prudent. We're providing the information for those who care sufficiently about their welfare and the welfare of their families to be interested in the tactically preferred methods of dealing with a situation.
Every living situation is different...Every locality is different...

While I understand fully the 'tactical' theory behind your suggestion to 'call for backup', it simply is not realistic in my situation to call the 'police' for an open door, nor is it needed...I see someone finally mentioned dogs...

How 'prudent'...
Salmoneye is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 04:45 PM   #39
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
Additionally you must live in areas where police respond to that sort of thing. Many don't. When I lived in one of the less attractive cities neighboring LA, police would have laughed at a call like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneye
...While I understand fully the 'tactical' theory behind your suggestion to 'call for backup', it simply is not realistic in my situation to call the 'police' for an open door, nor is it needed...
Again,none of that changes the basic, tactical reality that:
Quote:
...if you enter your house and there is an unknown number of bag guys willing to engage you inside, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage.
If someone believes he's fully capable of dealing with that situation, he might consider how much training he's had, how many exercises he's been put through in shoot-houses or simulators and how much force-on-force training he's had.

It's true there may be situations in which you will need to go in, e. g., a family member who may need immediate rescue. Or you may have other reasons for believing that you will have to go in. So maybe you should invest in some serious training.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 05:30 PM   #40
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,317
Or maybe I have a glass fronted house that makes it impossible for anyone to hide anywhere inside...Maybe it is 4 rooms all with sliding glass doors...Maybe it is a one room shack with windows on all sides...

I did try to make you at least think about your 'one size fits all' answer, but "Every living situation is different...Every locality is different" seems to have been ignored out of hand...

You have no idea what 'training' I have from a few lines on the internet...Nothing of what security I may or may not have...Webcams streamed to my iPhone?...

As I have stated (ad nauseam now)...I understand what you are saying...

It simply does not apply to me in MY situation...

Why this seems to bother you to the point of being insulting, is baffling...
Salmoneye is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 05:38 PM   #41
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
Salmoneye, give em hell.

Edit: I feel like there is a general tendency in the forum moderators to remain PC and encourage its members to rely on the state for our general welfare.
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 05:43 PM   #42
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmoneye
...It simply does not apply to me in MY situation...

Why this seems to bother you to the point of being insulting, is baffling...
And what you don't seem to get is that your situation doesn't matter. It's not about your situation. It's about providing the information for anyone who is interested. And it's also about helping be sure that others recognize that your opinions about your situation are just that and not generally applicable.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 05:50 PM   #43
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Big Bird PhD
... I feel like there is a general tendency in the forum moderators to remain PC and encourage its members to rely on the state for our general welfare.
Really? Then go back and re-read pax' post 31:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax

One thing that always fascinates me about this stuff is that those who have a higher level of training have much more robust understanding of how to do it safely... and also of how & when not to do it.
Perhaps the moderators here, and some of the other members, just happen to know a little something about the subject -- maybe more than you.

So how much do you really know about clearing a house, and how do you know it?
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 05:56 PM   #44
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 627
Freqently on here I see people get emotional about someone disagreeing with their statements being challenged. The challenge is usually a good learning experience to see options and different approaches to various situations.

However some people view a different viewpoint from their's irrationally as a personal attack. Those who are so irrational are not the people I want in a tough situation with me. Keep it cool. That's the best way to win a gun fight - or any fight.
__________________
Jim Page

Cogito, ergo armatum sum
JimPage is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 07:36 PM   #45
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimPage
...The challenge is usually a good learning experience to see options and different approaches to various situations...
Jim, looking at options is generally good. We need to consider options. But statements like, "I'm not calling the police for an open door", or "I'll handle things because the police won't come", aren't offering options. They are merely statements of intent or rationalizations for intent.

If someone in such a situation were really interested in offering options to staying put and calling the police, he'd outline ways of dealing with the very real tactical disadvantage he'd face going into the house to look for one of more intruders.

So someone who believed he'd need to go inside, say because there was a disabled family member at home, might want to discuss the training he's had and what he had learned about how to enter a building in which there might be one or more criminals. He might want to discuss some things to do before going in, like looking for signs of forced entry or checking the windows for unexpected movements. A couple of folks mentioned dogs, and that could be helpful as well.

The tactical disadvantage doesn't go away. So if someone wants to offer useful options to calling staying put and calling the police, he really needs to discuss how to deal with that issue.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 07:53 PM   #46
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,904
After nearly a decade of teaching and learning at a busy professional firearms training school, I have to say that the more I've learned about how to clear a home, the less willing I am to do it unless it's utterly necessary.

Here's a news story about a man who came home from work and found his front door open. He armed himself and went inside to look for a bad guy. He found one, and now he’s dead. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,3679823.story

I suppose some would say that’s a case of “don’t bring a lead pipe to a gunfight,” and that’s true. But the bigger lesson is, don’t go looking for someone who wants to kill you.

It's one thing if you absolutely have to do this thing for some compelling reason -- such as, you reasonably believe a family member is inside. Or if you're 97.32% sure that there's no lurking bad guy because your dog hasn't alerted, or because of some quirky personal circumstance (such as a known-to-be-malfunctioning door latch on a windy day).

But if it's just a matter of being too embarrassed to call for backup, that's very unwise. Because with situations like this, it turns out that it is possible to die of embarrassment.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 08:52 PM   #47
ltc444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
It is better to be thought a fool than to be proven a dead fool.

If you believe, the security of your home is compromised then you should contact the professionals and allow them to do what they are trained to do.

In any potential shooting situation, the police should be contacted (if time permits) before initiating action.
ltc444 is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 10:10 PM   #48
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,047
Quote:
I feel like there is a general tendency in the forum moderators to remain PC and encourage its members to rely on the state for our general welfare.
I think it's quite the opposite. I carry a firearm because the state may not have the resources, will, or competence to guarantee my safety.

However, that doesn't mean I shouldn't avail myself of those resources if it means not placing myself in needless danger.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 02:55 AM   #49
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,155
This is addressed to those who say that they will clear their homes alone in this eventuality; those who would hesitate to call the police, and those who are concerned about false calls or false alarms, and "crying wolf".

I am the one who gets the call from Dispatch saying that a person has an open door; possible burglary in progress, (address), homeowner/occupant is (insert location here) and is watching the residence.

My reply is, "Received. Do you have a description of the homeowner?"
Dispatch then gives me your description.

By this time, I've got every light on the vehicle going, but no siren. Why? I want to CATCH them, not scare them off. Usually, there are at least two units responding to back me up, as well.

My lights go off a couple of blocks away. I and at least one other officer will contact you and ask a few questions.

Does anyone else have a key?
Have you given anyone permission to enter?
Did you leave anyone home; is everyone accounted for?
Are there any pets inside?
Did you leave any firearms or other weapons accessible inside?

Finally, do we have permission to enter and clear your home?

Units will set a perimeter to observe and secure all sides of the home.

I'll prepare to go in with a partner. We're both wearing body armor and radios with earpieces. Both of us will grab our patrol carbines (AR15 type) and chamber a round. We'll make sure we have a couple of reloads as well.

I'll then tell you, "Stay behind cover, and whatever else you do, do NOT approach or enter the house until you see us come out."

We will then enter and clear the home.

We are wearing body armor and carrying rifles. We do NOT, except under extreme emergency, enter a home alone.

We accept that if someone is there, there is a good chance that we'll get into a fight--possibly a gunfight at VERY close quarters.

My son was in Fallujah in 2004. He cleared buildings with other Marines for two solid months--and Fallujah is a pretty big city. And yes, he told me that he did encounter hostiles while clearing buildings and houses. If you think trading a few shots inside is a daunting challenge, try getting into a gun fight, with both sides going full auto at almost muzzle contact range.

HE has told me that he will NEVER clear a building or house alone--and this is a guy with more experience than most of us can ever think of.

For those who still want to do it, think of it in this way--what is a more somber trend of thought--you waiting for the police to arrive, with the possibility that your hard earned belongings are being taken...

...or having someone approach your wives, husbands, sons or daughters to tell them that one of the people they love most in the entire world just got shot to death?

Folks--PLEASE do not attempt to clear the house by yourself. Call us. It doesn't matter how many times you call--I would rather respond 100 times to your address to clear your home with no result, than have to respond ONCE to collect your dead body.
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13561 seconds with 9 queries