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Old November 26, 2012, 12:03 PM   #26
DASHZNT
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Whoa.. Ok. Thanx for the headsup. Ill back it down to 9.0-9.1gr of the Titegroup Powder. Thanx for the tip, I thought the brass expanded slightly to jam up a bit.

Btw, I only put 250-300 rounds through the gun but of a lower charge. 18 of the rounds were the hotte load so im pretty sure there was no damage.
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Old November 26, 2012, 06:01 PM   #27
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Leave the Titegroup on the shelf. Much too easy to turn your revolver into metal origami.

Use AA#9, Enforcer, or H110/296 - 300gr XTP's are too expensive for lets-pretend loads.
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Old November 26, 2012, 06:25 PM   #28
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I have some 2400 on the shelf I can use. That has a larger window. But like anything, you just gotta be careful is all. Ive always liked Titegroup, like the saying goes, "a little goes a long way". Ill just back the load down to safer results and then build up a load with the 2400 I currently have as well and then Ill take your advise and build up a load with your choice of powders. Its pretty hard to destroy a gun unless you just totally disregard common sense or have a lack thereof as well!

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Old November 27, 2012, 10:25 AM   #29
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Using Mag primers with Titegroup and 2400 is unnecessary and dangerous with top loads. The Hodgdon manual lists 9.6 grains with that bullet and standard primers at 39,800psi. 19 grains of 2400 is 40,200. The 4 Smiths (dash 1,2, and 3) that I've owned all stuck cases long before my SBH Rugers in top loads. Use fast powders for moderate loads.
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Old November 27, 2012, 10:36 AM   #30
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Ok.. so are you saying if I go with regukar primers I can stay at my current load of 9.5gr or is there gonna be an entirely new workup plan here.

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Old November 27, 2012, 04:35 PM   #31
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removed duplicate information

DASHZNT,

No. There's no free lunch. If the velocity is higher so is the pressure. If the standard primer lets you use more powder before there's a pressure sign, then it's because the portion of the powder ignited initially is lower. What a magnum primer does is increase the starting pressure in the case. The reason it's called "magnum" is that magnum cases are more likely to have the extra space in them that needs their extra pressurizing gas quantity. So as long as a load was developed with magnum primers to be operating at safe pressures, then it will be safe.

A good article on the topic by a former CCI employee is here.

There are a couple of things to be aware of with magnum primers. One is that the larger gas volume they make can sometimes unseat bullets in handgun rounds before the powder burn gets well enough under way. That can actually lead to lower pressure and velocity, and the consistency of it is usually poor. As a result, a chronograph shows higher velocity standard deviation.

On the other hand, if the charge volume leaves a lot of empty space and the powder has trouble getting up to starting pressure, the higher pressurization by a magnum primer can then improve velocity consistency over the standard primer. To find out, you just have to work loads up from a starting level with both types. I usually knock an extra 5% off a starting load for a magnum primer if the load data was developed with a standard primer.

In the case of the Tightgroup loads with the 300 grain XTP on Hodgdon's site, the primer used is a Remington 2½, which is not a magnum primer. On the Hodgdon site, when you look at load data, click on the "Print" button to see what the brass and primer were. Hodgdon's listed pressures for Tightgroup are pretty reasonable up to 9.6 grains and if they are correct, they should not cause sticking cases. Hodgdon claims 38,400 CUP for 9.6 grains, which has no exact equivalent to psi, but is probably in the 40,000 psi range. It's hard to tell though, as copper crushers can err by substantial margins. QuickLOAD, on the other hand, thinks that same load would be closer to 50,000 psi.

QuickLOAD is not great with straight wall cases, but your experience with sticky extraction suggests reality for your lot of Tightgroup lies somewhere in between QuickLOAD's numbers and Hodgdon's numbers. QuickLOAD thinks you'd have to go all the way down to 8 grains to stay inside SAAMI pressures, but without velocity measurements from you and the length of your barrel, I can only tell you what the defaults suggest.

The rule I gave you about the sticky extraction point is the basic method used by Elmer Keith and others to develop revolver loads above rated pressures. You can do it, but there's no need to stress the gun with higher-than-standard pressures when slower powders will get you the velocities you want with lower peak pressures. They will give you more muzzle blast because they keep the pressure up longer in the bullet's travel down the bore than fast powders do. That's how they can get to the same velocity with a lower peak pressure.
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Old November 27, 2012, 04:44 PM   #32
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If I may offer a word of caution here , max loads will shorten the life of your S&W M29 ! If you want to shoot gnarly loads on a regular basis , get yourself a Ruger SRH . Especially if there's a pistol scope in your future . I have been shooting the 300 XTP over 20 Gr. of W-296 for years as a hunting load , it smacks stuff down with authority . My ammo won't even chamber in a Smith (too long)
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Old November 27, 2012, 05:35 PM   #33
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I load my 300 grain XPTs over 20.4 grains of H110 on the bottom cannelure but that is for my SuperRedHawk.

I am probably being captain obvious here but a 300 XPT is going to penetrate any BG you are defending against and probably kill anyone standing behind them innocent or otherwise.

In my humble opinion, this might make an OK bear load and I use mine for deer but as a SD load I think you are way off base.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:46 AM   #34
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Wow.. Thats a mouthful! I appreciate the input. Im using a 6 1/2" barrel 629 if that changes anything for you.

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Old November 29, 2012, 10:37 AM   #35
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No, it doesn't change anything by itself. You'd need that and chronograph readings both. Then a pressure estimate can be derived via QuickLOAD. If you don't have a chronograph the estimate of it lying between Hodgdon and QuickLOAD based on your sticky extraction is about a good as we can do. Probably on the order of 45,000 psi.
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Old November 29, 2012, 02:40 PM   #36
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Ok.. I made up some new rounds to test out later today, schedule permitting of course. These two loads seem to be a little more on the tame side and I am hoping to not get the sticky cases I had with my first load. As long as these dont stick, I think Ill have found my load for these projectiles.

6 Rounds
8.9 Titegroup
CCI #350 Magnum Primer
Hornady XTP 300gr HP

6 Rounds
8.4gr Titegroup
CCI #350 Magnum Primer
Hornady XTP 300gr HP
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:50 PM   #37
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There is a terrific chance that your accuracy will be much better with standard primers and Titegroup than with the magnum primers you listed. Try both if you have them.
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Old November 29, 2012, 10:33 PM   #38
DASHZNT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black mamba View Post
There is a terrific chance that your accuracy will be much better with standard primers and Titegroup than with the magnum primers you listed. Try both if you have them.
I have both and I will. But it was surgically accurate with the previous load just a bit high on the pressure hence the sticking cases. Just wondering why the primer im using gives you an impression that it affects accuracy adversely... I would love to find out why you think this. Again, I want to learn as much as possible and ultimately improve any load I make, so Id like to know. Thank You.

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Old November 30, 2012, 07:34 AM   #39
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It won't necessarily. In handgun cartridges it mainly depends on whether the space in the case can take the pressure of the extra gas made by a magnum primer without it unseating the bullet before the powder burn gets underway. Sometimes, when there is a lot of empty space in the case and the magnum primers are not unseating the bullets, they are actually better for accuracy by increasing start pressure. That's explained in the article I linked to in my earlier post.

Also, don't just change to a different primer without knocking the charge weight down another 5% and working back up. Ironically, under some circumstances a standard primer can cause higher pressure than a magnum primer does. This is mainly when the magnum primer is unseating the bullet but the standard one is not, so the powder fired by the standard primer starts building pressure in a smaller space.
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Old November 30, 2012, 12:17 PM   #40
DASHZNT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenick View Post
It won't necessarily. In handgun cartridges it mainly depends on whether the space in the case can take the pressure of the extra gas made by a magnum primer without it unseating the bullet before the powder burn gets underway. Sometimes, when there is a lot of empty space in the case and the magnum primers are not unseating the bullets, they are actually better for accuracy by increasing start pressure. That's explained in the article I linked to in my earlier post.

Also, don't just change to a different primer without knocking the charge weight down another 5% and working back up. Ironically, under some circumstances a standard primer can cause higher pressure than a magnum primer does. This is mainly when the magnum primer is unseating the bullet but the standard one is not, so the powder fired by the standard primer starts building pressure in a smaller space.
Ok, well in this case scenario, there is alot of available space. The projectile is quite large though, thats the main reason why I use Titegroup, because it takes up minimal space in the casing and I know there is a nice gap between powder and projectile. Thats not why I chose the primer though, I just had 100 laying around that I bought awhile ago and figured Id make a load using them and if they work out, Ill stick with them. So far they have not shown any signs of affecting accuracy at all but the charge seemed to clearly be on the high side. So, the current charge is toned down 10 & 5 percent respectively. I havent had any range time yet though and probably wont until Sunday or Monday though because I gotta work, but ill keep you posted and im curious what develops and what you have to say.. Thank You.

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Old November 30, 2012, 02:05 PM   #41
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I may have missed it when reading this thread, but since you're using the upper cannelure have you verified that the data you're using was generated using the same cannelure?

If you use near-max load data generated using the lower cannelure (longer OAL) and then seat your bullet deeper to the top cannelure, pressure will be much higher. If they don't mention which cannelure was used in the load data, they almost always include the OAL.

You may already be aware of this, but I thought it was worth bringing up since I hadn't seen it mentioned. Lots of new handloaders scour these forums so it's good to specifically mention these issues.

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Old December 1, 2012, 01:57 AM   #42
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DASHZNT, it has just been my experience that unless using hard to ignite heavy charges of ball powder, that standard primers give better accuracy. I think the smart method is to try both and see which works better for you.
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Old December 1, 2012, 07:49 PM   #43
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300 Gr. Hornadys seated in the first (bottom) cannelure , won't allow the cylinder to close on a M29 .
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Old December 1, 2012, 07:57 PM   #44
DASHZNT
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Affirmative.. and the Hornady Manual has the OAL at the top Cannelure anyways. I go by their manual as its their projectile.

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Old December 1, 2012, 11:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acerdog
I like the Alliant MP-300 with the 300gr XTP. Need to go to alliant web site for load data.
I've been meaning to try that. It looks really good and may be the powder Buffalo Bore uses for those hot .45 Colt and .44 Magnum loads, among others. Notice I say may, but have no idea. All I know is that MP-300 develops impressive velocities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneoldsap
If I may offer a word of caution here , max loads will shorten the life of your S&W M29 ! If you want to shoot gnarly loads on a regular basis , get yourself a Ruger SRH . Especially if there's a pistol scope in your future . I have been shooting the 300 XTP over 20 Gr. of W-296 for years as a hunting load , it smacks stuff down with authority . My ammo won't even chamber in a Smith (too long)
Thats true, I use them very sparingly in my Model 29 and pre-29, well at least my pre-29, but extraction is easy and they're so great on meat, that I still carry them for hogs and deer, if I use any of my .44s. I've tried all of the ones below and 300 grain XTP with 20 grains of H-110/Win 296 is a great load. It expands to 70+ caliber at velocities as low as 800 fps, it does it in gel, through all the FBI protocol tests. It does it in water and wetpack and deer and hogs. Its top notch for hunting an SD.


cartridges and projectiles are, from the left: 250 grain Nosler Partiton HG with 24 grains of H-110/Win 296 CCI magnum pistol primer, 250 grain hard cast Keith type 22 grains 2400 with Win large pistol primer, 300 grain XTP 20 grains H-110 CCI magnum large pistol primer and the projectiles, 300 grain XTP, 240 grain Gold Dot, 240 grain XTP, 210 grain Gold Dot. Revolver is my S&W .44 Magnum, 6.5" blue, shipped in July, 1956, the first year of production, so I'd hate to shoot it loose.


I have my S&W 29-2 stoked with them as well. It was shipped in 1976 and I've had it since 1985, so I don't want to blow out its cylinder walls either.

I've got a blue 5.5" .44 Ruger Super Black Hawk and if I want even heavier projectiles a 7.5" .45 Colt Ruger SBH, pictured below with some hot loaded 250 grain XTPs. I can't remember the load right now, but its very warm.

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Last edited by nate45; December 1, 2012 at 11:19 PM. Reason: spelling, 48 and I still make mistakes. :)
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:34 AM   #46
Rifleman1776
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Back when the NRA had it's Dope Bag service I wrote about this issue of magnum primers. The response said there is never any reason to use magnum primers in a handgun/pistol.
The letter was written by one of the famous names in the firearms game. I still have the letter but am too lazy at the moment to retreive it.
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:13 PM   #47
DASHZNT
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Well I fired off the rounds I made to test and they ran absolutely perfect!!!
The first 6 were the 8.9gr of Titegroup and then the 8.4gr of Titgroup thereafter. I probably should have done it the other way around but ai was anxious to blast the stronger stuff. All went well in both loads. There was signs of extreme pressure at all. They were also dead on accurate, my groups were nice and tight. And most importantly, the effictiveness of the XTP 300gr HP projectile speaks for itself!!!

Im pretty sure I can bump the load up to 9.2, but I say why bother?! I was very pleased with the results and I think im gonna stick with these. The primer situation is not an issue in my humble, yet extremely accurate opinion!! If they hurt the gun, they wouldnt make them. Secondly, I like them and am gonna stick with them for now but plan on working up a load with normal primers to reduce the amount of different components on my bench.

Following is the "magic" load that has worked for me.. I appreciate the input from everyone that has chimed in here and I have learned alot as well as was confused by some too, worth it all though... Thank You.

8.9 - 9.0gr Titegroup
CCI #350 Magnum Primer
Hornady XTP 300gr HP
OAL - 1.595" & Roll Crimp

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Old December 2, 2012, 09:35 PM   #48
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not to hijack, but i've got a H&R handi rifle in 44 mag and I like the 300gr XTP. will there be a load difference between whats run through a pistol and a rifle?
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Old December 2, 2012, 09:47 PM   #49
DASHZNT
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I couldnt answer that question for you cuz I dont own nor have I shot one of those ever. I would recommend to get a manual, theyre priceless with the knowledge you acquire from them and important to cross reference what you hear anywhere else.

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Old December 3, 2012, 09:03 AM   #50
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Quote:
was signs of extreme pressure at all.
Then you say you want to bump UP the load.
Then you thank the posters for what you have learned.
Sorry, I don't think you have learned anything.
Keep your insurance paid up and, please, don't shoot near me. I'm allergic to flying metal parts.
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