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Old November 8, 2012, 01:38 PM   #76
JimDandy
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There are 10 state police agencies that use the round, thats not bad. I did not start using it as a Carry round until after I retired, but then again i am abnormal.
How many Muni's? Military? Feds? And 10 agencies now... how many when it came out? Fast adoption was my point... it took too long to get accepted by enough to get that drive.
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Old November 9, 2012, 07:03 PM   #77
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The .357 is great for what it was made to do. If you are a big slow bullet fan than this round is not for you. However let me explain some of the things that have not been touched on. First many departments where desprate to get a large cap mag, that had the power like their old .357 mag revolvers, yet they needed to be able to have a large number of rounds and the auto's quick reload abillity. One thing that they found during the Texas DPS testing was that scores of new troopers in training got better. IE they hit the target more. One class used the SIg P220 in .45 acp and shot for score, another class used the SIG P226 .357 sig. the .357 class got better scores, than they switched guns between classes and again the .357 shooters got better scores. Texas also wanted a gun that had a better long range performance, apparently they shoot alot of coyotes at a hundred yards and with the .45 they had too much bullet drop. Then they had a shooting. two troopers engaged a gunman inside a semi truch cab. the traniee had the .357 P226, while the traning officer had the old P220 .45 acp. after the shooting they foudn that the rounds from the .45 did not make it into the cab, while the .357 rounds did and killed the gunman, yet at the same time they stayed in the body.
Because the .357 Sig round is a recent invention, we know more about bullets than back in 1910 when (about) both the 9mm, and .45 acp came out. For some reason bullets from the .357 tend to stay inside the body of person shot and not pass through most of the time. Now this does depend on bullet type, and brand. In terms of police use there are two major bullets that top the list. The first is the LE only winchester ranger 125gr "Q" load, that is used by the United States Secret Service. The second is the Speer 125gr Gold Dot. Now despite what people say the bullets are not 9mm, because of the much high velocity the specs for the .357 mag bullets were used to withstand the much higher MV. The oppisit happens with +P+, & +P 9mm loads, those rounds use the 9mm bullet but push it almost as fast as the .357 so they are much more prone to over expand and fragment. Now for my uses I do not mind the over expansion and fragmentation of the +P 9mm. However if I was partoling the local express way all day and would face bad guys behind auto glass I would be carrying my .357 sig not the 9mm.
Now in terms of the .40 S&W vs. the .357 sig it is a strange contest. In its orriginal loading the 180 grain bullet was good but not great. now if you take a 135gr .40 load and compare it to a 125 gr .357 load you will find things are very close but again the light bullets over-expand and fragment in the 135 gr .40 loads. so if you take a .40 135 load, and a 9mm 125 +P, and a .125 gr .357 sig load you will find the results are very close except the .357 bullet will go just a little deeper and hold togeather better.
As for ammo costs I have found that if you plan ahaed and order from online the .357 target rounds are not muct more than the .40 S&W loads. I just last week got a box of .357 sig, winchester target loads for 18.99 at cabelas store in Michigan. So my solution is to own a .357 and a .40 S&W barrel for each gun. I have a Glock 22, 32, Sig P226 ST and all have two barrels for them. The reason I do that is because I (and this is just a quirk of mine) like to have a handgun close to that of local police. Since michigan State police carry the P226 .40 S&W I like to have that, however if I got visit my friends in Texas, than I switch over to the .357 sig. drive west from Texas and New Mexico State Police use the Glock 31 .357 sig. Now as someone here said before in times of emergency or natural disaster good luck buying a box of 9mm at the gun shop, but almost always there is some .357. no it will not be cheap but it works very nicely. In a bug out situation being able to shoot two differat calibers is very handy.

Lastly is were I think that the round really does a good job. If I lived on a farm and wanted to protect myself and my livestock from wolves, coyotes, and bears than I would just carry my .357 loaded with the 125 grain gold dot. I have personally seen the aftermath of a 7 foot grizzly shot with this load. there was only one shot fired and the bear went down. Now this was a perfectly placed shot, and probaly involved some luck but it worked. I have also shot a number of wild hogs with this load and it does amazing things. Since I shoot an auto pistol better than a revolver I prefer to carry my sig p226 in the woods for bear protection when I hunted alot in alaska. Since anyone in the wilderness has a better chance of running into a criminal than a big bear this should also be considered.
Well I am sorry for the long post but I hope I explained to everyone what the round is useful for and what it was made for. Everyone has their own personal opinion about he best caliber for defense so some people will prefer the ballistics of the .45. I think we should fight with ourselves less and just be happy that the number of gun owners in America is growing!

Shoot strait and have a good day!
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Old November 12, 2012, 12:49 AM   #78
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Great post Steve
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Old November 12, 2012, 08:04 AM   #79
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The secret service uses P229's in 357 SIG. If any group of people could probably get any gun in any caliber if they thought it held some advantage over current equipment it would be these guys. I am guessing primarily because of the penetration but I could also see other advantages like in longer distance shooting.
My next door neighbor is a retired Secret Service Agent having guarded several presidents going back to the revolver days.
He said they did do plenty of homework when they switched to the Sig. Price played no role, it was all about a rounds ability to stop a threat as instantly as possible with a pistol everyone could shoot well and carry comfortably.
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Old November 26, 2012, 12:53 AM   #80
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wstevedscross... thanks for an excellent post. As a owner of Glock 31 & 33 (my winter everyday carry) I love the performance capabilities of the .357 Sig. Never had an issue with either weapon at the range. As others have noted, the ammo is not stocked everywhere, however, when available, it is normally the last couple of boxes on the shelve. The internet is where to find the most reasonable pricing. In most cases, the cost is the same as a .40 or .45.

BTW, I typically carry my first luv...a Ruger SP101 .357 Mag during the summer months.

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Old November 26, 2012, 02:13 AM   #81
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Because there is no .38 Sig special!

It is a good round. I wish it would catch on. Price and availability of ammo is the deal breaker for me. Hopefully things will change. Easy barrel swaps to .40 sure helps it along.
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Old November 26, 2012, 08:07 AM   #82
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Buffalo Bore makes a .40SW - 125 gr. at 1300 FPS. It appears more manufacturers are creating 125-135 gr loads for .40 S&W to mimic the .357 sig. The smaller cross section of the .357 sig might make it go in a tiny bit further, but it also expands a tiny bit less. I would call it a wash. Both should be about the same effectiveness as a man stopper.

The advantage of the .40 is ammo choice. They go from 125 grains all the way up to 200. This gives the platform a ton of versatility. I prefer the 155-165 grain. Some people might prefer the 180-200's. I have not shot the 125's, but I intend to. I have 135 gr powrball, but am less confident in it, then I am in 155/165 gr Federal HST.

The Secret Service might have switched, but unless somebody knows what bullets they tested, the data means very little. If they tested .357 sig 125 gr against .40 S&W 125 gr, then we would have some good data points. My guess is they didn't.

One other thing, .357 sig is not .357 magnum. A magnum 125 gr bullet moving at 1650-1750 fps is something .40 S&W or .357 sig cannot touch. It is the real man stopper. If you want that kind of power in a semi-automatic, you need to move up to 10 mm.
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Old November 27, 2012, 04:39 PM   #83
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One other thing, .357 sig is not .357 magnum. A magnum 125 gr bullet moving at 1650-1750 fps is something .40 S&W or .357 sig cannot touch. It is the real man stopper. If you want that kind of power in a semi-automatic, you need to move up to 10 mm.

There is one load I found from BB that meets those 357 Mag specs. The trade off is 1) six shots vs 14-16 2) Lots of blast,flash and recoil for a 150 FPS gain.

I do not think I would want to shoot those in my J frame.
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Old November 27, 2012, 05:41 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by wlkalong
One other thing, .357 sig is not .357 magnum. A magnum 125 gr bullet moving at 1650-1750 fps is something .40 S&W or .357 sig cannot touch. It is the real man stopper. If you want that kind of power in a semi-automatic, you need to move up to 10 mm.
No 357Mag touches that number either, in a carry gun. Stating "FPS" without barrel lengths is pointless.

Note the results from Ballistics by the Inch:

357Mag 4" barrel
Corbon 110gr 1,351fps
Corbon 125gr 1,477fps
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,438fps
Federal 125gr 1,436fps

357sig 4" barrel
Corbon 115gr 1,472fps
Corbon 125gr 1,410fps
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,273fps
Federal 125gr 1,367fps

You need 10" (10 inch!) barrels to get to your "1,750fps". Nobody, positively NOBODY, carries a 10" revolver.

You also need to realize that a revolvers barrel is measured IN FRONT of the cartridge while a semi-auto (and every thing else besides revolvers) is measured from the breach-face. In other words, a 357sig (cartridge length 1.240") with a "4 inch barrel" actually has the revolver equivalent of a 2 3/4" barrel and a 357Mag (1.59") with a "4 inch barrel" has a 357sig equivalent a 5.59" barrel. So even comparing barrels that are both "4 inches", is really not fair.

A fair comparison, as done by Ballistics by the Inch, using Encore/Contender barrels to equal the playing field, shows the following:

357mag, 4" barrel:

Corbon 125gr JHP 1,496
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,471
Federal 125gr 1,511

357sig 4" barrel:

Corbon 125gr JHP 1,468
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,317
Federal 125gr 1,426

So, "on average", the Mag has an advantage but it ranges from virtually zero to perhaps 150fps.
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Old November 27, 2012, 10:27 PM   #85
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No 357Mag touches that number either, in a carry gun. Stating "FPS" without barrel lengths is pointless.

Note the results from Ballistics by the Inch:

357Mag 4" barrel
Corbon 110gr 1,351fps
Corbon 125gr 1,477fps
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,438fps
Federal 125gr 1,436fps

357sig 4" barrel
Corbon 115gr 1,472fps
Corbon 125gr 1,410fps
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,273fps
Federal 125gr 1,367fps

You need 10" (10 inch!) barrels to get to your "1,750fps". Nobody, positively NOBODY, carries a 10" revolver.

You also need to realize that a revolvers barrel is measured IN FRONT of the cartridge while a semi-auto (and every thing else besides revolvers) is measured from the breach-face. In other words, a 357sig (cartridge length 1.240") with a "4 inch barrel" actually has the revolver equivalent of a 2 3/4" barrel and a 357Mag (1.59") with a "4 inch barrel" has a 357sig equivalent a 5.59" barrel. So even comparing barrels that are both "4 inches", is really not fair.

A fair comparison, as done by Ballistics by the Inch, using Encore/Contender barrels to equal the playing field, shows the following:

357mag, 4" barrel:

Corbon 125gr JHP 1,496
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,471
Federal 125gr 1,511

357sig 4" barrel:

Corbon 125gr JHP 1,468
Corbon 125gr DPX 1,317
Federal 125gr 1,426

So, "on average", the Mag has an advantage but it ranges from virtually zero to perhaps 150fps.

as far as the barrel length in my experience a 6 inch barrel on a semiautomatic will be faster than a 6 inch barrel on a revolver.

I never posted the data on my 6 inch 686 but I have a review on my 357 magnum automatic (coonan)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495750

as you can see in that review I was getting about 1800 FPS (900 foot pounds) with my Coonan Classic. My 686 with the same rounds was doing about 1700 FPS (the buffalo bore web page states a bit over 1700 with there 6 inch revolver as well)

While I dont know if this is true of a 10mm or a 45acp or a 9mm or 357 sig I can say that I have tested it and the 357 magnum runs hotter from a semiautomatic if the barrel length is the same in a revolver and an auto.
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Old November 27, 2012, 11:12 PM   #86
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I'd say that, while it may not be as popular as 9, 40, and 45, it is actually a very popular round. It is not often that a new round comes along that becomes accepted enough to get as many pistols made for it. Now, it has dropped off recently and it is a bit less likely for any new pistol to be chambered for .357 sig, but it is still around.
In my opinion it is a lot like the 10mm in that it has its place, but only if it is loaded to achieve velocities that are beyond what the 9mm is capable of.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:38 AM   #87
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I guess that is kind of my point. For all practical purposes, .357 sig is really not any better then 125 gr. 40S&W. Yes, you can get super hot loads, but who would want to shoot them and how much will they impact your follow up shots?

Initially, I was really enamored with the .357 sig, but now I am glad I shoot 40. For myself, I cannot see any reason for .357 sig, when I have low weight .40 to shoot. I am sure more 125 gr loads for 40S&W will appear if they demonstrate their superiority to heavy bullets.

I see very little need for .357 sig, but that is just my opinion. Barnes makes a 40 S&W 125 grain that does 1390 fps out of 4 inch barrel. If I want to shoot a small high velocity bullet, I would just shoot that.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:48 AM   #88
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Bullet construction is going to take a toll on the performance. The 125 GD 357 Sig @1500 FPS gets my nod over a 125 Grn 40 @ 1350 FPS. The light 40 is going to have less SD and may not penetrate deeply enough for SD usages.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:53 AM   #89
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I think that comparing the .357 to the .40 doesn't make much sense. Not the same caliber, so not a very good comparison. The .40 is to the 10mm as the 9mm is to the .357. The bullet is what matters, not the case.
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Old November 28, 2012, 12:30 PM   #90
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The 125 GD 357 Sig @1500 FPS gets my nod over a 125 Grn 40 @ 1350 FPS.
Who is it that's loading the .357 Sig to 1500 fps? What length barrel?

That's handloaded 9x23 territory.

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Old November 28, 2012, 01:29 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by wlkalong
I guess that is kind of my point. For all practical purposes, .357 sig is really not any better then 125 gr. 40S&W. Yes, you can get super hot loads, but who would want to shoot them and how much will they impact your follow up shots?

Initially, I was really enamored with the .357 sig, but now I am glad I shoot 40. For myself, I cannot see any reason for .357 sig, when I have low weight .40 to shoot. I am sure more 125 gr loads for 40S&W will appear if they demonstrate their superiority to heavy bullets.

I see very little need for .357 sig, but that is just my opinion. Barnes makes a 40 S&W 125 grain that does 1390 fps out of 4 inch barrel. If I want to shoot a small high velocity bullet, I would just shoot that.
I don't find a single listing of any Barnes 40SW ammo that's 125gr. Their bullet is the DPX (Deep Penetrating X-Bullet) and is used in Corbon ammo.

Checking Ballistics by the Inch, they show 135gr DPX ammo and it's not remotely close to 1,390fps from real guns. In fact, it BARELY hits 1,200 in any gun they tested. It takes a 5" barreled Encore barrel to get it to 1,400.

DPX bullets aren't really built for speed. Their solid construction increases start-pressure and usually requires lower loads to maintain safe pressure. Lower loads = lower velocity. Corbons own JHP ammo beats the Barnes bullets handily, though it still doesn't touch 1,400fps in a 4" barrel.

I'm not sure what your point is about "super hot loads" and follow-up shots but I (and many others) find 357sig recoil to be LESS than standard 40SW recoil and MUCH less than 40SW +P.


Nobody has to like the 357sig, it really doesn't matter, but at least don't like it because of facts, not plain bias.

The 357sig round approximately matches the legendary man-stopper 125gr 357Mag loads but it does it in a gun that is typically shorter, always lighter, has higher capacity and is thinner than virtually any 357mag revolver.

Most 357sig handguns weigh less loaded with 10-15 rounds than does a typical EMPTY revolver. Add another magazine and you're still often lighter (or very close to) an EMPTY revolver, but you're at 20-30 rounds with a thinner, usually shorter gun and longer barrel.
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Old November 28, 2012, 02:30 PM   #92
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I also haven't seen any 125 gr. loads for the 40 S&W. There are a few 135 gr. loads. Some of these are advertised as "low recoil" loads which I assume are for small and light pieces and claim to do about 1200 fps. Cor-Bon claims 1325 fps and Double Tap 1375 with their Nosler JHP.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/310...oint-box-of-20

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/761...oint-box-of-50

I'm not sure of the point of these lighter bullets from the 40, other than the hopes that they will produce less recoil in smaller guns than the heavier rounds.

To me the 40 S&W seems at it's best with the 155-165 gr. pill at between 1200-1300 fps. A good combination of a heavier bullet at a manageable speed. Not unlike many loads for the .357 Magnum but with a slightly larger bullet.

One small point...the .357 Magnum was "a legendary manstopper" long before Lee Jurras developed the first viable jhp in 110 and 125 grs. in the late 1970s and marketed them under the Super Vel name. Prior to this it was recognized for years as a very useful hunting round and a good self defense and law enforcement round with lead bullets and semi jacketed soft points in a variety of weights. The better bullet for it helped up it's reputation though but it most certainly did not make it.

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Old November 28, 2012, 04:45 PM   #93
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I think that comparing the .357 to the .40 doesn't make much sense. Not the same caliber, so not a very good comparison. The .40 is to the 10mm as the 9mm is to the .357. The bullet is what matters, not the case.
Interestingly, the case is the main difference between them.
The 40 is just a shortened 10mm case and the 9mm is more or less a 357 also in a shorter case and suitable for autos.
The .357Sig is essentially a 9mm bullet pushed by necked-down 40 case.

Comparing the 357Sig to 40s&w makes perfect sense - its an example of two different bullets being pushed by the same case - one being fast and bigger, the other being even faster but a bit smaller.
The 357Sig has a reputed advantage in initial expansion (expands fully right away) and more reliable feeding due to the bottle neck shape, while the 40s&w has its advantages in price, availability, simplicity, bullet diameter and overall expansion capabilities.
Neither are puny and both generate energy levels and wound channels that are on-par with standard 45acp while fitting into smaller frames and offering better capacity in most pistols.

My short answer as to why the 357Sig isnt more popular boils down to it being more expensive and throwing a smaller bullet - its counter-intuitive, oddly shaped, wasnt picked up by thousands of LEO departments and simply didnt make it onto the ammo manufacturers radar as a big winner like 40s&w did, thus it costs more and is harder to find
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Old November 28, 2012, 05:19 PM   #94
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Doubletap Ammunition 40 S&W 125 Grain Barnes TAC-XP Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 50 - Midway has them. Sorry, I should have been more specific.

Technical Information:
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullet Weight: 125 Grains
Bullet Style: Barnes TAC-XP HP Lead-Free
Case Type: Brass


Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1390 fps
Muzzle Energy: 536 ft. lbs.

Their .357 Sig- is 125 gr at 1450. (584 ft. lbs).

Like I said, I don't see much difference in them. I would have to see an apples to apples comparison of .40 SW 125 gr to .357 sig of the same weight to be convinced. .357 sig might go in a half inch deeper, .40 SW will make a slightly bigger hole the length of the wound. Either one should be an excellent round. I have read some of the lighter rounds of .40 break apart, but there are also reports of .357 or even .357 Mag doing the same thing. With well designed bullets, this should not be a problem.

My comment about not wanting to shoot .357 at 1600 FPS is because of muzzle flip and time to reacquire my target. You might be a much better shooter then me, so it might not be much of an issue for you.
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Old November 28, 2012, 05:37 PM   #95
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We need to get away from FPS and Ft. lbs comparison of calibers. Look at what works and what doesn't work. Compare gel test expansion and penetration. The warmer 125 grain 357 sig is a good round, but so is the 165 grain 40S&W. The 45 acp is doing great with much less velocity. I'm not a fan of the lighter 40S&W rounds as they are harder on the firearm and shooter.
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Old November 28, 2012, 05:50 PM   #96
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You need to compare the same barrel lengths.

From DoubleTaps site:

357Sig

3.5" barrel - 1415fps
4.5" barrel - 1525fps

Caliber : .357 Sig

Bullet : 125gr. Bonded Defenseā„¢ JHP

Ballistics : 1450fps / 584 ft. lbs. 4"bbl

40SW

Caliber : .40 S&W

Bullet : 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP Lead Free

Ballistics : 125gr. @ 1390fps / 536 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)

1295fps 468 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.

1445fps 580 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.


4" Barrels:
Sig 1,450fps, 584 ft/lbs
40 1,390, 536 ft/lbs

Sig wins by 60fps, 48 ft/lbs, not really significant, though it is nearly 10% more energy.

4.5" Barrels:
Sig 1,525fps, 645 ft/lbs
40SW 1445fps, 580 ft/lbs

Sig wins by 80fps, 65 ft/lbs, over 10%.
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Old November 28, 2012, 06:07 PM   #97
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There is a 125 gr. load for the 40S&W as mentioned,from Double Tap. From Double Taps web site:

Quote:
Caliber : .40 S&W

Bullet : 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP Lead Free

Ballistics : 125gr. @ 1390fps / 536 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)

1295fps 468 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.

1445fps 580 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=602

Still I'm not sure why.

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Old November 28, 2012, 06:50 PM   #98
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So 357 sig about 10% faster/ft/lbs, but a .40 S&W bullet is 10.2mm as opposed to 9.02mm for 357 Sig. So the .40 S&W hole, is 12% bigger. Still sounds like a wash to me.

I will stick to .40 because
-it should be just as effective at 125 gr
-it tends to be cheaper to shoot
-it is more available, you can find it anywhere
-it has more options 125 gr - 200 gr
-it is widely accepted

Best of all, if I am wrong and .357 sig is the bomb and really takes off, I can change out my barrel and join the club.

One more thing, real men don't shoot these pissy little calibers, real men shoot .50 action express. It's the new Dirty Harry round.
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Old November 28, 2012, 07:10 PM   #99
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I choose 357 SIG just to be different than most, the bottle neck case looks cool and helps with feeding, its loud and has a nice fireball, love it. Remember all pistol rounds suck, 9mm, .40,357 SIG, .45 ACP, 10mm, or whatever. Shot placement is more important than what caliber of pistol you have. Heck, a .22lr can stop someone with the right shot placement.

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Old November 28, 2012, 07:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron1100us
I choose 357 SIG just to be different than most, the bottle neck case looks cool and helps with feeding, its loud and has a nice fireball, love it. Remember all pistol rounds suck, 9mm, .40,357 SIG, .45 ACP, 10mm, or whatever. Shot placement is more important than what caliber of pistol you have. Heck, a .22lr can stop someone with the right shot placement.
Largely the same reason that I chose it. In some ways, I wish I gone with 10mm but in reality, I should have gone with a 45acp Glock. Not because I have any love for 45acp, I would have actually sold the 45 barrel immediately, but because it opens up so many other conversions for me to play with. 38Super, 45super, 40Super, 400Corbon, 9x25 dillon, 357sig, 10mm... some barrels would need to be custom made but they all can be had.

Cost of rounds is almost completely irrelevant once you start to reload.
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The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
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