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Old October 31, 2012, 03:39 PM   #1
zincwarrior
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M&P for IDPA -which trigger pull better?

As a present from the wife, I'm looking to get a trigger job done on my S&W M&P (tactical version), for better IDPA fun (SSP level). This would be only for competition, not carry.

I like the 3.5lber as its in line with my old 1911, but the less crisp 2.25 is inlione with my old Ruger target .22. What are your thoughts on the different weights?


Quote:
Standard Trigger job- $65.00 plus return shipping

Smoothes out and reduces pull weight to as low as 3.5 pounds on the M&P40 or M&P9, 4.5 pounds on the M&P45. Reduces reset and over travel. Makes significant improvement over stock trigger. Is absolutely not mushy like a glock with a 3.5 pound connector. I do not change any springs so you not need to worry about light primer hits. This is about as close to a 1911 trigger as you can get without a 1911. No safeties are disabled in any way. I can do the standard trigger job without really reducing the trigger pull weight for those more comfortable with heavier trigger.

Competition Trigger job- $110.00 plus return shipping

Smoothes out and reduces pull weight to 2.25 pounds. reduces reset and over travel. I do not change the striker spring so you not need to worry about light primer hits. This trigger is a little less crisp than the Standard Trigger job but is about the same as stock.
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Old October 31, 2012, 04:58 PM   #2
Jim Watson
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I've got the Burwell Standard and see no reason to go lighter.

Advertising notwithstanding, it is nowhere near a 1911 of the same pull.
It isn't BAD, it is a considerable improvement over stock, well worth the price, but it isn't 1911.
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Old October 31, 2012, 07:36 PM   #3
medic21
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M&P Trigger

Look into the Apex triggers. Do it yourself with YouTube videos to guide you. Two versions:carry and competition. Costs around $90 IIRC. I have comp version and it's a vast improvement over factory
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Old October 31, 2012, 07:58 PM   #4
MP9
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I have a m&p 9 full size for idpa/uspsa.. I have the apex USB and hard sear, like the apex carry kit but without the trigger spring to keep the trigger aroung 4#

are you sharpshooter? expert? how well are you doing with your pistol?, if you are shooting marksman or SS, you could keep that trigger, and practice and practice , then upgrade the gun. (once you are more into the game, if you arent already)

or you can use the apex competition too, this should give a 2.5 -3 trigger pull..

there is the apex FSS as well, it will be the most similar to a 1911 trigger in a polymer gun... but that is not for SSP or uspsa production...
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Old November 1, 2012, 06:03 AM   #5
zincwarrior
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I'm a baby competitor, and have yet to be classified (doing this less than six months). At this point I'm in the top half and generally top two in most accurate in smaller club matches.

I realize practice is the most important, but like to have tools better han I am. I'm just not happy with the tactical's accuracy at this point. Its nothing in accuracy in comparison to my Beretta 92 (in SA mode with a modified 4lb pull). It doesn't even seem as accurate as the new M&Pc I acquired a month ago. I think trigger pull is a factor, but not the only factor. Other items I am contemplating are a Dawson adjustable site, and a KKM drop in barrel.

I've heard of the APEXs, but I would send those in to work up as well as I have the technical capacity of a tree slug. Would you say the Apex is better than Burwell? I've heard excellent things about both. I should note I expected to get some trigger work done of some sort before I bought the pistol - based on recommendations I've seen. I'm just not sure which pull would be better.

Good to know its not up to 1911 standards as I would be disappointed about that.
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Old November 1, 2012, 11:00 AM   #6
RickB
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Apex seems to be popular, locally. We did have a problem at our sanctioned match, last Summer, with two Apexes failing the "trigger safety" test (I still can't think of a lever in the middle of the trigger as any sort of safety, sorry). I don't know if it was due to wear, imperfect installation, or if the tolerances aren't perfect, but something to consider.
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Old November 1, 2012, 11:11 AM   #7
zincwarrior
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Here's where I reveal my ignorance: trigger safety test?

Last edited by zincwarrior; November 1, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
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Old November 1, 2012, 01:21 PM   #8
RickB
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It's illegal to deactivate safeties for IDPA competition.

While the guns are at chrono, they're boxed, weighed, and the safeties are inspected/tested (the KNOWN safeties. I very much dislike this part of any match, as it's usually a 1911 grip safety test, and little else).

Guns with "trigger safeties" - Glocks, M&Ps, etc. - are tested by very carefully pulling the trigger while avoiding the "safety" lever in the middle. If the striker falls, it's a fail.

It was determined that the safeties were defective, rather than having been "disabled", so both competitors were allowed to continue, with replacement guns.
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Old November 1, 2012, 03:08 PM   #9
zincwarrior
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Thanks Rick. I've not seen that test before. Works for me, although I'm not devious enough to figure out why a safety would be intentionally disabled.

(then again I do view trigger safeties as meaning much but thats just my $.02 cents.)

Thats helpful to know that there are some modifications that might mess that up.
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Old November 1, 2012, 05:19 PM   #10
RickB
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And you may never see it. IDPA does not tell us what we're supposed to be looking for, or how to test what we find.
I suspect that's why the "safety test" usually consists of testing 1911 grip safeties. Would you know if a CZ SP01 Shadow is supposed to have a firing pin block? How about a CZ SP01 Phantom? Me, neither!
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Old November 8, 2012, 01:11 AM   #11
chris in va
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IDPA stands for International Defensive Pistol Association.
The whole idea, at least originally, was to use your HD/SD pistol and gain skills with it.

If you won't use this on your nightstand or for CC purposes, it really kinda defeats the purpose. IMO.
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Old November 8, 2012, 02:12 PM   #12
RickB
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That was sort of the founding principle of IPSC, 20 years prior, and IDPA was a "redo" for some of the guys who thought IPSC/USPSA was going in the wrong direction. We also now have the Polite Society, 1911 Society, and other splinter groups, who don't like the established organizations for one reason, or another.
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Old November 26, 2012, 03:12 PM   #13
hounddawg
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I just put the APEX kit in mine, can't recommend it enough. Part of the instruction video has you check to make sure the trigger safety works. Zero creep, clean break and no over travel. You can do the competition or the duty carry kit one has about a 3 lb break and the other a 5 pound if my memory is correct. I used the competition since I carry a sub compact
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Old November 26, 2012, 04:01 PM   #14
zincwarrior
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Quote:
IDPA stands for International Defensive Pistol Association.
The whole idea, at least originally, was to use your HD/SD pistol and gain skills with it.

If you won't use this on your nightstand or for CC purposes, it really kinda defeats the purpose. IMO.
This pistol is for IDPA but also would be considered a "bad day at black rock" pistol. It has the same pull as our slightly tweeked FS 92 and the Wife's Storm she has for CC. So it fits that category.

Update: I went with a Burwell trigger job (3.5 lbs) which is iline with the Apex kit I was looking at. Just came back last week and I love it. While its not up a good 1911's crispness it definitely is much much better, and I hioghly recommend it. The pull is perfect for me and length of pull is pretty short (not sure of the technical name for it). Anything lighter and I'd be afraid to shoot it without extensive practice and never ina defensive need. I am a happy camper.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:57 PM   #15
hounddawg
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I am sure you will be happy with the trigger job.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:06 PM   #16
ripnbst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
The pull is perfect for me and length of pull is pretty short (not sure of the technical name for it)
This is generally referred to as take-up.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:16 PM   #17
zincwarrior
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Thanks. Yes, the take up is definitely lessened and in an excellent range.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:43 PM   #18
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Good that you are happy with it, that's the main thing.

My personal take on IDPA is it's my method for T&E of potential carry rigs and combinations, so my bias is toward carry trigger systems.

I'm not worried about winning an IDPA match, so I shoot what I carry. As a result, I stay in the 4-5 lb range with regard to trigger pull.

I also stay away from fiber optics, as I've seen a few of those fail (element popped loose from mount) at matches. They are great when they stay mounted, but for me they are for dedicated match or hunting guns, only.
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Old November 27, 2012, 03:16 PM   #19
zincwarrior
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Agreed as well. Although I can understand serious competitors desire for very finely tuned triggers (the entire 1911 pack comes to mind) but as a weekend hack with no delusions of grandeur 3.5 - 4.5 lb pull is about as low as I want to go.

Ironically I agree on the front sight as well, but literally am taking the pistol to Gander Mountain after work today to get a taller fiber front sight put on, not because I particularly care for a fiber sight, but need a taller one with the adjustable sight I had put on at the same time as the trigger job. I'm trying to get as close as possible to my Beretta's oldability to hit quarter sized targets at 7 yards.
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:37 PM   #20
hounddawg
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to me a good trigger is more about the pre travel, over travel and smoothness than the weight of the pull. I have a couple of double action S&W revolvers whose DA pull weight is in double digits but I consider them excellent triggers.

My M&P with the Apex kit is a hair over 4 lbs, but has zero pre travel, zero over travel and is as crisp as my 1911.

pre travel over travel and a pull like ground glass do nothing for safety in either a carry weapon or a competition gun. Just saying

Last time I did a IDPA match I shot either a CZ75B or a full size 1911, in winter months I have been known to wear the CZ when it is coat weather. I have never carried the 1911. My summer CCW's are a PPS and a S&W J frame neither of which would be worth a darn in a IDPA match.
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Old November 29, 2012, 04:08 AM   #21
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I think the PPS could surprise you, performance wise. However, I am not comfortable with dropping those magazines on the concrete floors in our range - I can't help but think the polymer bases aren't very well designed for repetitive hard impacts.

But at an outdoor range, on grass or dirt, I might give the PPS a go, with the 8rd mags. It'd be down two from the other guns in its class, but most of our courses of fire require at least one reload in any case, and the PPS will shoot pretty competitively with larger guns.
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Old November 29, 2012, 09:04 AM   #22
hounddawg
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Good point on the PPS, I have shot it at 15 and 25 yards and it is a great little shooter.
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