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Old November 6, 2012, 12:37 AM   #26
Sport45
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Quote:
The Type 99 was a magazine fed light/medium machine gun.
My Type 99 is a bolt action rifle with an internal magazine that holds 5 rounds and can be loaded from a stripper clip or one at a time from the top.

If Japan had two Type 99's it would explain why I'm having trouble understanding the business about it feeding from a clip.
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Old November 6, 2012, 07:35 AM   #27
Mike Irwin
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Sport,

Sorry, I was addressing Jim's comment regarding Japanese automatic weapons.

The Type 99 is a Japanese Arisaka rifle.

The Type 99 is also a Japanese magazine fed light machine gun.

The Type 99 is also a Japanese 81mm mortar.

The Type 99 is also a Japanese hand grenade (the "Kiska" model, where it was first encountered)

And finally, the Type 99 is also a Japanese 20mm cannon used primarily as an aircraft weapon.

There may well have been other Type 99s, as well.
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Last edited by Mike Irwin; November 6, 2012 at 07:50 AM.
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Old November 6, 2012, 07:46 AM   #28
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That must have been a good year for them.
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:53 PM   #29
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Right on the machineguns. My bad, I had the Type 92 (Hotchkiss type HMG), and the Type 99 ("Jap Bren"), reversed. Anyway the 7.7 semi-rimmed was made for the Hotchkiss type and that is what is in those feed strips.* The latter took the same rimless round as the Type 99 rifle.

Sport45, the confusion comes because the Japanese used the date of adoption, as the U.S. did until the 1930's. Every firearm adopted in 1939 (2599 in the old Japanese calendar) was a "Type 99". As Mike says, a Japanese saying "Type 99" would have to say "Type 99" what. We have the same problem with, for example, Model 1917, which could be a rifle, one of two different revolvers, or a Browning machinegun.

*Edited to add that I just looked at the box and even I, with almost no Japanese, can read "Type 92".

Jim
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Old November 7, 2012, 07:26 AM   #30
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It's also the same as saying M 1 in US parlance.

For example...

M1 Garand

M1 Carbine

M1 Helmet

M1 Combat Car/M1A2 Light Tank

M1 81mm Mortar

M1 Submachine Gun (simplified Thompson variant, quickly replaced by the even simpler M2)

And the list goes on and on...
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Old November 8, 2012, 01:03 AM   #31
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M1 Submachine Gun (simplified Thompson variant, quickly replaced by the even simpler M2)
ah...that would be the M1A1, IIRC, Mike....and then the much simpler M3 and M3A1 Greasegun....

Military designations are such fun....
When someone says M4, are they talking a bout a 5.56mm carbine, or a Sherman tank?

And is a P-38 a 9mm pistol, or a fighter plane? OR a GI can opener?
Yes, depending on context

and there is at least one other Jap type 99 that I know of, the Aichi Type 99 dive bomber (known as the "Val" to US forces)

I'm sure there's more, we just have to find them...type 99 chopsticks? M1 Bootlace?
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Old November 8, 2012, 01:47 AM   #32
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Definitely get the chamber of that rifle identified. It is not 7.7x58mm Jap.

If you're not familiar with the process of taking a chamber cast (or don't have the proper measuring tools), take it to a competent gunsmith. They'll take a cast, ID the chamber, and can stamp the barrel for the appropriate cartridge (required by law).

And/or...
Take it back to the shop you bought it from, and tell them you're getting hit in the face by debris, every time you shoot it.
If they don't offer to take the chamber cast for free, push the issue. If they still refuse, you have a very shady dealer that should not be trusted.
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Old November 8, 2012, 04:11 AM   #33
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And/or...
Take it back to the shop you bought it from, and tell them you're getting hit in the face by debris, every time you shoot it.
If they don't offer to take the chamber cast for free, push the issue. If they still refuse, you have a very shady dealer that should not be trusted.
Or drop a .30-06 in the chamber to show that you know it is definately not a 7.7x58 and only know that it is at least as large as a .30-06. Go on to tell him that it is not a .30-06 since the bore is at least 7.7mm.
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Old November 8, 2012, 07:34 AM   #34
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"ah...that would be the M1A1"

Yes, the A1, my mistake.

The M2 was a developmental dead end.
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Old November 8, 2012, 12:07 PM   #35
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Just to out-nitpick, the P-38 was a fighter plane, the "P" standing for "Pursuit", the old name for a fighter. The P.38 was a German WWII pistol. The period was correct because the "P" was an abbreviation for Pistole. The postwar version was just the P38 (no period). I haven't checked on the can opener.

Jim
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Old November 9, 2012, 02:06 AM   #36
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oh yes, James, very correct.

And FWIW, my "expert" called me tonight and told me there were four (4) "type 99" aircraft in service with the WWII Japanese Army, and a couple others with the Navy. Type 99 was a very popular designation, and bascially could refer to anythingy designed or adopted in 1940.
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:14 AM   #37
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'Type 99 was a very popular designation, and bascially could refer to anythingy designed or adopted in 1940.'

No, it was 1939, as Jim noted, as 1939 in the Gregorian calendar was 2599 in the Japanese imperial calendar.

And, it wasn't anything designed in a particular year, it was the year that it entered military service.

Additional examples, the Type 0 fighter, or Japanese Zero, which entered service in 1940. It got a hell of a lot worse later in the war, though, when another system was adopted on top of that system...

The old Japanese system of nomenclature used to use the then current emperor's name and a numeral designation equal to his years on the throne.

For example, the Arisaka 6.5mm rifle was the Meiji (emperor) Type 38 (years of his reign).
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Old November 9, 2012, 02:14 PM   #38
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And of course, the fighter should really have been called the "00" but they dropped one "0" and called it the Zero (Japanese designation). That designation caught on, and Americans almost always called it the "Zero", even though the official Allied code name was the "Zeke".) The actual Japanese designation was A6Mx, with the x being a number indicating a change. Minor changes were indicated by an additional "model" number. Major changes to the basic type were designated by a letter. The Zeros used at Pearl Harbor were designated as A6M2 Model 21.

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Old November 9, 2012, 03:23 PM   #39
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forming 7.7 from 30/06

A reloader/shooter/collector purchased a 7.7 Japanese that had been modified. He ask a question about cases, being concerned about the price of cases he expressed an interest in forming cases. After everyone told him everything they knew about Japanese rifles I got involved, helping him was not something that could be done on a forum so I contacted him and gave him my contact information. I offered to form cases for his 7.7 for free, he agreed but was reluctant. I formed 80 cases, I kept 2 from each box in case there was a question.
I used new and once fired cases, I used 4 different head stamps. I formed the cases with a 308 Winchester forming die, I formed the cases long from the head of the case to the shoulder then full length sized the cases with A Herters 7.7 Japanese full length sizer die.

When finishing the full length sizing process I screwed the die down to shell holder on the first 20 cases, then I backed the die off the shell holder .005” for the next 20, I backed the die off .009” to size the the next 20 cases, for the last 20 I backed the die off the shell holder .014”, I mailed the cases to him. He sent the results to me, he said the first set chambered so he loaded them, he said the next set chambered with slight resistance to bolt closing so he loaded them, he then said the third set would not allow the bolt to close so he full length sized them and he loaded that set, same for the fourth set. he full length sized them and then loaded them also, the last 2 sets required trimming.

He lives just west of Ft. Worth, TX., he had a couple more questions so I made arrangements for him to meet me at the Dallas Market Hall gun show, by the time he got to the show he had fired all the cases at least 3 times each. He had some gun parts he needed checked out so he bought them with him, he was given an opinion and introduced to resource people.

He had a question about the forming process, he wanted to know how I knew his chamber was go-gage length as in the first set chambered with no resistance to bolt closing, I informed him I did not have a clue what condition the chamber was in, I explained to him I formed cases that matched the length of a a minimum length chamber, a go-gage length chamber, a no go-gage length chamber and a field reject chamber, all that was required of him was to let me know which set chambered. It did not take him anytime at all to catch on. Again, if I had one forming die it would be the 308 Winchester, if I had two forming dies the second one would still be in the 308 W family like the 7mm08 or the 243 Winchester etc..

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; November 9, 2012 at 03:31 PM. Reason: change 06 to 08
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Old November 9, 2012, 03:30 PM   #40
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my bad, wrote 40 when I meant 39.

Another interesting tidbit, for equipment dating 1940, the Japanese Army used "type 100" while the Navy used "type 0". probably to reduce the confusion, although it seems that reducing confusion was not something the Japanese miliary excelled in, evidenced by 3 (or more?) different types of 7.7mm ammo, not interchangable. And other things....

Supply officer had to have been one of the most aggrivating and frustrating positions in the Japanese military....
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Old November 9, 2012, 06:23 PM   #41
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Just out of general curiosity, anybody know what the "Type I" 6.5 rifle was designated as by the Japanese? I often thought that was something we hung on it.
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:20 PM   #42
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Hi, Gunplummer, if you find out, let me know. I have been digging around for a long time and can't find the answer. I am not even sure the Japanese didn't call it that.

Hi, 44AMP, I think the confusion was probably more for modern collectors than for the Japanese. The 7.7 rimless was issued only in clips that fit the Type 99 rifle. The 7.7 semi-rimmed was issued only in feed strips for the Type 92 HMG, and the 7.7 rimmed (.303 British) was issued only to the Navy for their Lewis guns. So there would be few if any chances for confusion.

I think there would have been greater chance for a mixup with the two types of rifle ammo, but they reportedly made sure a given regiment or division had only one caliber rifle.

Jim
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Old November 10, 2012, 09:32 AM   #43
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Regarding 0 vs 00 designation, the Japanese made a conscious decision to start at 0 and use single digits until they got to 10.

That designation system was supplemented by the Ki designation used for various types of aircraft.

The entire Japanese procurement and designation system was a boondoggle in large part because the Army and Navy were so competitive and often very much in conflict with each other.
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Old November 10, 2012, 09:59 PM   #44
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Reportedly, the services agreed to split Zero production and the Army insisted on its half, even though they were not using the aircraft and didn't need them, while the Navy was desperate for more carrier fighters.

The army usually got their way because an army general was prime minster; the good of the country had nothing to do with it.

Almost sounds like the Pentagon today, doesn't it?

Jim
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Old November 10, 2012, 11:40 PM   #45
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Zero production was never split. The Army and Navy had their own design and production channels, and rarely shared anything the intraservice rivalry was that strong.

The Type 1 Ki-43 "Oscar," the IJA's primary fighter during much of the war, bore a very strong resemblance to the Zero fighter and often caused quite a bit of confusion among Allied pilots.

Later in the war, as the IJN's carrier forces were whittled down and the Navy's role became progressively more marginalized by the simple fact that there were fewer and fewer places for them to place aircraft as the Allies island hopped across the pacific, many of the remaining Zeros were assigned to defend the home islands and to serve as Kamikazis.

The Army was primarily in charge of home island defense, so it would have been in charge of whatever Zeros were left, but they were always flown by Naval aviators, not Army aviators.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:35 AM   #46
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@ sport

I will never buy a gun from that shop again, i thought i was getting a steal on an iver johnson m1 carbine that was in great shape for 400.00 shot 100 rds thru it and it wouldnt cycle also the firing pin was also broke because there were no strikes, no big deal easy fix, still was having cycling issues the flipping gas piston was broken in half everybody i talk to couldnt believe it. So i had to fix firing pin and gas piston for carbine to work.

Now that i find out that the arisaka shoots 30-06 instead of 7.7 really ****** me off. There not doing my transfers any more either.
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Old November 20, 2012, 12:42 PM   #47
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amen to that, something like failing to verify that a gun has been rechambered is forgiveable IMO since most gun shops just list what is on the barrel anyway but an M1 carbine that is completely trashed and being sold as operational draws the line for me, 2 strikes and you're out in my book.
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Old November 21, 2012, 10:15 AM   #48
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The p38 can opener was placed in cases of "C"-rats or rations, it was also known as a "John Wayne" at least that was told to me by the marines that were on the LST troop carrier I was on in the 70's
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