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Old March 27, 2001, 01:15 AM   #26
LawDog
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Quote:
You are going on what you see and what you are told. Not what the tangible truth is.
Umm, isn't that pretty much what you're doing as regards krav maga, Choke?

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Old March 27, 2001, 08:10 AM   #27
chokeu2
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Mall Ninja, good one A team. Personal attacks in the face of a discussion. Not a good sign. Here is my experience A team. And, by the way, you are free to come to Atlanta or Brazil to check it out on your own. I have been practicing for over 19 years. I have a fight school here in Atlanta, and in Brazil. My business partner and friend, who is also my BJJ teacher is a 5th Deg BJJ BB. We are partners with Mario Sperry in the SUL/Union, coaches to the Brazilian Top Team, validated by CBJJ. Do you even know what CBJJ is? Our team has not lost a Southern Brazilian championship in 11 years. Our fighters compete in NHB on a regular basis. Including the UFC. The othere focus of our business is on law enforcement. We teach to many departments throughout the country, including some federal. That does include firearms mind you. Now, if you are interested to come Atlanta, I will gladly give you my address and phone numbers.

Now, go and find articles written by Mario Sperry that talk about BJJ and self defense. You will see with your own eyes, that the advocation of getting your ass off the ground is paramount. Anyone with any common sense knows that if you are on the street, you do not want to be on the ground for a long period of time. you have to do what you can to either end the confrontation immediately or get up. You seem to think that BJJ people believe their style to the be all end all art. Well, those that are smart do not think that. Those that have practical application do not think that. BJJ is all about leverage. And leverage applies when you are standing up as well as being on the ground. There is MUCH that you can do on your feet while you are tied up with someone. Do you realize that the goal in BJJ, when you are on the ground is to obtain the mount, then pound the daylights out of the opponent? I doubt it from what you have said. We have a very different training progam. The people that I work with are not only interested in sport applications.

And as to multiple attackers, you mean to tell me that you actually believe that you can train to take out multiple attackers, who just may know how to fight? Or are just so overwhelmingly aggressive. Are you going with the flock to the slaughter? You are told that you can take out multiple attackers, so you believe it? Do you know the best way to handle multiple attackers? The answer to that is get out if you can. If you cannot, fight as hard as you can. if you have a firearm available, better be able to use it effectively. Your knowledge of BJJ is merely common. You do not know what is being taught. I doubt that you have been to a school that has such close ties to brazil. You can train for that scenario all you want, but training and real life are very different animals as I am sure that you know. It is good to train for it, but it is not practical to think that you can always make it happen.

As to you trying to accuse me of being a video fighter, again, another personal attack when none have been made on you. Do you have that little to offer to the discussion? All of the arts that I mentioned were created for the destruction of an opponent. Again, you are more than welcome to come to Atlanta to find out. I qualified for the U.S. stick fighting team that fought in the Filipines last summer. Full contact, no pads, save for glove and a glorified fencing helmet. BTW, there are those on this forum that know me, and can back up what I say. Ask Krept. I own few technique videos. Save for the ones that we got from the folks at KM.com . The videos that I do have, are of my fighters. Lots of them. Including Abu Dhabi. You ever had a fighter there? Hmm, didn't think so. As a matter of fact, I will be there again in a few weeks.

Again, my experience with the KM people is that they are all about selling their seminars. You failed to address any of my arguments, which are reasonable, and rational questions. All you have done is come after me personally.

Here is a quote from you, which is SO UNBELIEVABLY wrong: "Other than on videos such a creature does not exist." Again, come to my school in Atlanta, or Porto Allegre Brazil. There is most definately the sport aspect of these arts, and we do teach that. But Thai was created for war, in case you did not know that. Which apparently you did not. BTW, I don't do autographs. Don't need to. As to who I train with... I am getting my BJJ training from a man that has been doing it for 45 years, his name is Ricardo Murgel(he and his wife also happens to live with me). I am getting my training from Sperry. And guess what, from the Gracies in Brazil themselves. My thai from a 3 time lumpini champ. And I have been doing this a long time.

Your "years of competition and being paid to spar with professional fighters," is great. Me too dude. Ever rolled with Coleman, Randleman, Sperry, Mark Robinson, any of the Gracies? Hell, ever rolled with a bjj BB that also happens to be a pro thai fighter? I do on a regular basis. Ever fight the dog brothers? I have. Ever fought in NHB matchs? I have, and do still. I am not here for a penis measuring contest. Yet you come at me with nothing but personal attacks after I apparently question something that you enjoy. I did not attack you. I did not mean to offend you. I merely joined a discussion for the sake of discussion not to attack anyone personally. I did not. I questioned what I believed to be a esoteric marketing plan. I have seen no hard evidence of KM, here, proving itself either in this forum or in a fight.

Law Dog, I am merely joining the discussion bro. No one has to believe a word that I say. I don't care. All I expect is that people attack the arguments that I put forth, not me. If one attacks me personally, all that does is show that, that persona has nothing to offer to the conversation and that the arguments are weak.
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Old March 27, 2001, 07:11 PM   #28
ATeaM
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I was contemplating taking this to email, but I'll try to keep it brief and to the point.

Choke2U, You're absolutely right, we could sit here and make this one more dick waving contest about who is more experienced, knows more people, which style is more proven ect. There is enough of that b.s. on and off the internet as it is. I'll leave that to the amateurs. I'm not going to address the fighting aspects of your posts. If that really concerns you, email me and I'll talk to you about it later. I'll even extend an invitation to you to work with my teacher, or at my MT gym here in L.A. should you visit.

At the end of your post you claimed to have joined the discussion "not to offend anyone", which, well...you seemed to talk a lot of $%^% about Krav Maga and I'm left wondering why ? Because of a video ? Look, I've seen some pretty bogus BJJ videos too, should I dismiss it as well ? Its all part of the martial arts business, and you should know that better than anyone else here.

Look, I don't know who from KM in L.A. approached you, but maybe before you respond you should get in touch with Beverly Hills JJ academy, or Ricksons place in the Palisades to get the info on the KM school before you comment. They should know better than anyone because like I said in my earlier posts, they interact on a regular basis with the KM school on Century Blvd. I know from the guys I have worked with and all the professionals who have dealt with this school say that they are fundamentally sound. And this is from working with them on a first hand basis, not watching videos. Thats the end of the discusion on my end for now. I'm sick, tired, and don't have any more energy to devote to this.
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Old March 27, 2001, 07:12 PM   #29
krept
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I'll have to side with chokeu2 on this one, not out of blind or friendly devotion, but because of the things that forum members on mixedmartialarts.com have said about him, his school and the instructors that teach there.

With the schools that teach multiple styles or a hybrid style that includes BJJ, I have found that there is a very real emphasis on street-effective techniques. On the other hand, I'm sure that you will find BJJ schools that only teach BJJ and omit no-gi techniques, their students will be more likely to butt-flop-to-guard position, both on the street or during a fight in the ring.

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Old March 27, 2001, 11:08 PM   #30
johnwhitman
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I think I should just stick to facts because there's so much other stuff going on in this thread...

Choke, what experience did you have with us? Who did you talk to? When was it? You can email me at johnw@kravmaga.com. If anyone misrepresented us, I'd be happy to straighten things out.

Re: seminars -- sure, we want people to come to our seminars. Who doesn't? No one goes through a day of training with us and gets certified in anything. Our certification program is very intense and grueling. You'd love it.

Re: the knife defense you're so worried about -- no such kicks are shown in the instructional portion. There's a segment of the videos that shows dramatized situations. In it, the defender kicks the knife away...after making the actual technique and delivering multiple counterattacks and dropping the attacker. The kick is never made when the attacker is a threat, and it's not part of the technique. This is clear in the video. The technique itself doesn't involve anything of the sort.

Re: law enforcement: arguing this point would suggest that it's a debatable topic, and it's not. We were at FLETC last week, we're in Michigan this week, we'll be in Texas next month. LE considers our training effective, comprehensive, and practical.

You back up your credentials with big names. People who like KM's approach to self defense include Bas Rutten, Marco Ruas, and Oleg Taktarov.

The most interesting part of this thread is the debate regarding the blend of different systems. I still hold that there's a delay caused by conflicting systems -- I've experienced it in people I've fought, even good fighters, who think of punching when a takedown is available, or of a lock when a punch is there to be thrown.
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Old March 28, 2001, 02:14 AM   #31
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No attacks here, Choke, just making an observation.

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