The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 20, 2012, 12:29 AM   #51
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,222
Quote:
isn't a very odd coincidence (sp) that all M9's are made in the U.S.?
Umm, no it's not a coincidence at all. It's mandated. That's why numerous firearms manufacturers, such as HK, FN, and Beretta, have factories in the US to supply those guns to the US military. The US doesn't control those factories. The idea was it would give Americans jobs.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:51 AM   #52
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,213
If the specs were published ahead of time, and I'm certain that they were, one reason Glock wouldn't have applied is because their pistols won't meet the firing pin energy spec.
Quote:
I would bet that Glock could produce a model with a safety if that would land them a lucrative contract with the US military.
There have been Glocks manufactured with manual safeties. I believe that there have been two batches with manual safeties to fill military contracts on different occasions.
Quote:
Remember Mil-Spec,,,is not always the best but the best the Military is willing to pay for that gets the job done
The first problem with this line of reasoning is that the performance testing was done before the pricing portion of the competition began. The second problem with it is that the Beretta pistols, themselves, were actually priced higher than the other pistol brand that completed the performance competition. The parts/magazine portion of the contract was less for the Beretta proposal, but the U.S. ended up purchasing magazines from another supplier which largely negated that aspect of the pricing decision.

But the bottom line is that if they were going to base their selection primarily on price, they wouldn't have eliminated all but two of the contenders with the performance competition before even proceeding to the price competition.
Quote:
Therefore, it was eliminated from consideration even though it preformed significantly better than the Beretta.
I would be very interested to see any reports on CZ75 testing results associated with the M9 competition.

Only two pistols completed the performance portion of the competition, and one of those (SIG) was actually allowed to pass although it failed one portion of the competition. It was allowed to pass because the U.S. wanted at least two bidders involved to keep the final price down via competition.

http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 08:57 AM   #53
TMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Posts: 469
Quote:
I would be very interested to see any reports on CZ75 testing results associated with the M9 competition.

Only two pistols completed the performance portion of the competition, and one of those (SIG) was actually allowed to pass although it failed one portion of the competition. It was allowed to pass because the U.S. wanted at least two bidders involved to keep the final price down via competition.
When the military adopted the M9 the Czec's were still part of the eastern bloc. The Soviet regiem didn't collaps until 1989.
TMD is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:18 AM   #54
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Glocks; US Armed Forces....

I did not read all the forum posts yet but to my limited knowledge, a few Glock models are issued or authorized by US military units.
In 01/2012, I saw a few uniformed(ACUs) New York National Guard MPs wearing Glock 17 9mmNATO sidearms in SAS or drop leg holsters. The MPs were by New York City's Grand Central Terminal.
I also saw a TV program with a few LA National Guard MPs who used Glock pistols(17/19) while working the "road" in New Orleans.
The elite ACE(also called SFOD-D or "Delta") allows troops to pack the Glock 21 .45acp or a 1911a1 pistol. Some web weenies say Delta/ACE now uses the Glock 22 .40 but I think they mean the larger Glock 21 .45acp.
I'd read that a few USAF security forces(SF) carry the Glock 22/23 .40S&W on duty but that's unconfirmed by any USAF records or press releases.
Glocks are robust & well made but the standard M9/M9a1 & SIG's top rated M11 compact 9mmNATO will fill military holsters for many years.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:20 AM   #55
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Most of the "Operators" seem to be using the 229 which is always a good reason to ignore glock
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:27 AM   #56
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,222
Quote:
Most of the "Operators" seem to be using the 229 which is always a good reason to ignore glock
Which "Operators"?
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:37 AM   #57
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,194
trolley car operators?
zincwarrior is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:45 AM   #58
ak2323
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 190
The tier one SF guys (Delta, SEALs, FORECON) get pretty much anything they ask for.

They have budgets that are the envy of all the other SF units...
ak2323 is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:51 AM   #59
loose_holster_dan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 2,406
holy huge thread!

i have your answer - glocks suck!
__________________
Favorite range gun for the money - CZ 75B or STI Spartan V 9mm
Go-to carry setup - Walther PPS or PPQ in FIST kydex holster 1AK
Favorite semi-auto design - HK P7
"A Sig is like a lightsaber - not as clumsy or random as a Glock."
loose_holster_dan is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:00 PM   #60
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,160
Quote:
Most of the "Operators" seem to be using the 229 which is always a good reason to ignore glock

SIG's make me drool.

Which agency uses the P229 in .357SIG again? Secret service right?
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:12 PM   #61
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 5,639
Quote:
Quote:
Umm. What exactly are you talking about?

Here's one example. http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20...ing-colt-guns/

Colt is going back and retesting, but looks like a lot of 1911's will be replaced early.
Do you understand the concept of destruction testing? You shoot until it fails, then fix what broke. The cocking serrations, both shape and location, have been redesigned to address the issues revealed in testing; those aren't pics of a production M45, and I don't think any have been delivered yet, so what, exactly, do you think is going to have to be replaced?
RickB is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:21 PM   #62
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
^ Yes Secret Service Uses Sig .357 - and by "Operator" I was referring to Seals but I suppose technically it would be Delta Force.


Country Organization Name Model
Bangladesh Bangladesh Navy[18] P226, P228, P229
Special Security Force (SSF) of the Bangladesh Army[18] P226, P228, P229
Canada Canadian Special Forces[3] P226, P229
Royal Canadian Navy[citation needed] P225
Canadian Forces Military Police[19] P225
Ontario Provincial Police[20] P229
Royal Newfoundland Constabulary[21] P226
Vancouver Police Department[22] P226
Finland Finnish Army[3] P226
Georgia Used by police and special forces[citation needed] P226
Germany Spezialeinsatzkommandos (SEKs) of the police, and the Federal Criminal Police Office[23] P226, P229
Greece EKAM counter-terrorist unit of the Hellenic Police[24][25] P229
India Indian Army[3] P226
Indonesia Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group of the Indonesian Navy[26] P226, P228
Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group of the Indonesian Army[26] P226, P228
Iran Manufactured unlicensed by Defense Industries Organization as the ZOAF[27] P226
Ireland Army Ranger Wing[28] P226
Detectives of An Garda Síochána and the Emergency Response Unit (Garda)[29] P226
Republic of Korea Republic of Korea Naval Special Warfare Flotilla[30] P226N
Luxembourg Unité Spéciale de la Police of the Grand Ducal Police[31][32][33] P226, P228
Malaysia Malaysian Special Operations Force[34] P226, P228
Netherlands Unit Interventie Mariniers (UIM) of the Netherlands Marine Corps[35] P226
New Zealand New Zealand Defence Force[36] P226, P226R designated P226AL
Pakistan Special Service Group of the Pakistan Army[citation needed] P226
Poland GROM special group[37] P228
Portugal Portuguese Armed Forces[38] P228
Singapore Singapore Armed Forces[39] P226
Spain Grupo Especial de Operaciones (GEO) of the Cuerpo Nacional de Policía[40] P226
Sweden Swedish Police Service[41] P226, P228, P229
Turkey[3] ___ P229
United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates Army[3] P228
Various special forces[3] P228
United Kingdom British Army (standard P226 designated L105A1[3] and improved version with corrosion resistant finish designated L106A1[citation needed], P229 designated L117A2[3]) P226, P229
Special Air Service[3] P226, P228 designated L117A1
Ministry of Defence Police[citation needed] P229
United States U.S. Army[42] P228 (as the M11)
U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command[43] P229
U.S. Coast Guard[43] P229R DAK .40 S&W
U.S. Department of Homeland Security[43] P229 DAK (.40 S&W)
U.S. Diplomatic Security Service (U.S. Department of State)[44] P228, P229, P229R (9×19mm)
U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration[42] P228
U.S. Federal Air Marshals[45] P229 (.357 SIG)
U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation[42] P226
U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations[44] P228 (9×19mm)
Naval Criminal Investigative Service[46] P229, P239 (.40 S&W)
U.S. Navy SEALs[47] P226, P228 (9×19mm)
U.S. Navy[48] P228(M11) (9×19mm)
U.S. Secret Service[49] P229 (.357 SIG)
U.S. Postal Inspection Service[50] P229 DAK (.40 S&W)
Texas Ranger Division[51] P226 (.357 SIG)
New York Police Department[52] P226 DAK (9×19mm)
Orlando Police Department[53] P226R (9×19mm)
Anne Arundel County Police Department[54] P229R DA/SA (.40 S&W)
Memphis Police Department[55] P229 DAK
Shelby County Sheriff's Office[56] P226, P229 DAK (.40 S&W)
Connecticut State Police[57] P229 (.40 S&W)
University of California Police Department (UCLA)[citation needed] P226R (.40 S&W)
New Jersey State Police[58] P228 (9×19mm)
Houston Police Department[59] P229, P226 .40 S&W
Sacramento Police Department[60] P226R, P229, P239
[edit]See als

Last edited by jmortimer; November 20, 2012 at 12:31 PM.
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:23 PM   #63
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 359
Quote:
i have your answer - glocks suck!
Be careful with blasphemy like that!!!
simonrichter is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:28 PM   #64
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
FAMs, USSS, OIG/SSA....

As AK posted; "tier-one" spec ops like ACE, DEVGRU, ISA, AWG(Asymetrical Warfare Group; don't even ask, ) etc have different budgets & procurement systems. There $ comes from a budget source different than the regular or conventional armed forces.
As for the SIG P229/P229R .357sig, it is now in use by a few large federal agencies; US Secret Service, FAMs/Federal Air Marshals Service, even the OIG(office of the Inspector General) for the SSA(Social Security Administration).
The LE/military sales rep for SIG-Sauer could supply a full list of US federal agencies that use the P229 model in .357sig caliber.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:49 PM   #65
Crow Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 1,078
Quote:
Memphis Police Department[55] P229 DAK
I know this is true.

One of the SWAT team managed to sling brass down the back of my wife pants.

She sure did a dance. She stayed safe though, she kept her weapon pointed downrange the whole time.

Burned both cheeks too.

He aplogized after he saw me digging it out of the back of her drawers.

My wife didn't think it was that funny but the SWAT team and I did.
__________________
I am no longer participating in gun forums.

Good luck.
Crow Hunter is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 02:22 PM   #66
Kevin_d77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2012
Location: SW FL
Posts: 930
My cousin who is a county cop in South Bend IN is issued a 229 in 40 and another friend we have who is in a small precinct in NJ has the 228
Kevin_d77 is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 10:48 PM   #67
Dashunde
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 1,687
Quote:
One of the SWAT team managed to sling brass down the back of my wife pants.
How the hell...?
Uhh.. nevermind, the visual of you digging for it is enough for today.
Dashunde is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:25 PM   #68
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,975
Because the US military does not like unsafe guns.
RC20 is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 11:41 PM   #69
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by loose_holster_dan
holy huge thread!

i have your answer - glocks suck!
Oh boy, you've done it now. You've awoken him.



"Time you had that holster tightened up Dan."- Glock-aide man
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 04:59 AM   #70
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,993
I think the 80's military mindset wasn't ready for a plastic gun even without the striker/external safety aspects.

Maybe if it had been a favorite son (Colt, S&W, Ruger) things could have turned out different.

Has any handgun ever actually decided a war? I doubt it. Usually it gets decided by rifles, machine guns, artillery, logistics, air power, naval power, quality of generals, etc.
kcub is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 06:22 AM   #71
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 359
Quote:
Has any handgun ever actually decided a war? I doubt it. Usually it gets decided by rifles, machine guns, artillery, logistics, air power, naval power, quality of generals, etc.
Undoubtably true. Nevertheless, a handgun is...
1st: the most "personal" kind of firearm a soldier may carry and
2nd: the one his live may depend on when things go wrong and
3rd: moreover, also the kind of weapon most interesting for most civilian shooters

Thus, the "military handgun" issue will always weight in more than its actual value on a strategic level may imply. And its still interesting discussing it, btw.
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 08:27 AM   #72
Crow Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 1,078
Quote:
How the hell...?
Uhh.. nevermind, the visual of you digging for it is enough for today.


This is her doing some one handed drills.


It was at a training class. (Tactical Response Fighting Pistol)

Paul (the huge bald dude you see on TV sometimes on Police Women of Memphis) was shooting on her left side. One of his casings hit her in the back and went down the back of her pants.

I told her not to tuck in her shirt.

__________________
I am no longer participating in gun forums.

Good luck.
Crow Hunter is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 08:55 AM   #73
rodfac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,514
TunnelRat, Good post...and I'm no Beretta fan either. Rod

Quote:
I think far more speculation about service sidearms occurs on the internet than the actual military. The Join Combat Pistol program is long dead, as is its successor the Combat Pistol program. The US military recently bought a large quantity of new Berettas. The M9, or M9A1, isn't going anywhere any time soon. There are a lot more important problems on the table right now.
__________________
Our Flag does not fly because the wind blows against it, it is moved instead, by the dying breath of our patriots in uniform. Our Freedom is not free, it's been paid for many times over.
USAF Forward Air Controller, 5th Spl Forces,
An Loc, lll Corps, RVN, 69-70, Vietnam Vet '69-'73
rodfac is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 10:03 AM   #74
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,352
Because after more than 100 years of the quality desgned by John Moses Browning, the US military decided to try and be a little more sporting by letting Beretta provide an acceptable but not supreme side-arm in the lesser caliber. But even good sportsmanship doesn't extend to paying government prices on a Glock.

Can you imagine how much your $400 glock would be? With $600 toilet seats, $400 hammers, $37 screws....
JimDandy is online now  
Old November 21, 2012, 10:04 AM   #75
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,414
Quote:
I would be very interested to see any reports on CZ75 testing results associated with the M9 competition.
+1. This is the first time I've heard of the CZ 75 being associated with the 1984 US Army tests in any way.
Quote:
When the military adopted the M9 the Czec's were still part of the eastern bloc. The Soviet regiem didn't collaps[e] until 1989.
I'm confident that JohnKSa knows the history perfectly well. However, the CZ 75 had been in production for several years at the time of the tests, and you can be assured that U.S. Army intelligence had obtained quite a few of them and tested them very extensively before 1980. If they wanted a CZ 75 badly enough, it would have been simple to reverse-engineer the pistol and produce a domestic copy.

FWIW if you read Cold War-era gun press articles about the CZ, particularly those written before the pistol was first imported in the mid-80s, it can be difficult to separate fact from fiction. Some gun writers used spectacular hyperbole to describe this mysterious and forbidden Warsaw Pact wünderpistole, but when you read these articles closely, it's often apparent that the writer hadn't even handled the CZ, much less fired one; they were just parroting similar hyperbole from other writers.

IMHO it's possible that the CZ's "participation" in the Army tests is a myth that originated in one of these articles.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14247 seconds with 9 queries