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Old November 19, 2012, 09:39 AM   #26
hulley
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Wow, I learned something new today. I honestly thought that the extractor slide over the round either way and chambering a round by hand was ok. I will check my rounds and stop doing that. Thanks guys!
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Old November 19, 2012, 09:52 AM   #27
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Quote:
Wow, I learned something new today. I honestly thought that the extractor slide over the round either way and chambering a round by hand was ok. I will check my rounds and stop doing that. Thanks guys!
As long as you are feeding from the magazine, you are okay.

It is when you are forcing the extractor to have to snap over the rim that you "could' have problems.

You might not ever, but I prefer to be safe rather than sorry. Especially if you are using this method to put in your first defensive round. It would really suck to chip and extractor and not find out until your gun won't extract properly when you need it most.
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Old November 19, 2012, 10:54 AM   #28
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Reading from PX4 manual, it does state that rounds could be chambered manually.

I did a little test where chambered softly (moving slide by hand), extractor DOES catch the lip of the round although there is a slant on extractor to go over it "softly". Extractor can be moved outwards along with the help of the slant, but it's extremely firm and it catches the lip when done gently. It does not complete rounding the chamber and gun would not shoot.

If chambered hard letting the slide go, extractor applies greater force and with the guide of slant, leaps over the lip of round and round is chambered properly.

When chambered through magazine, it could be seen that round lip slips underneath the ejector.

From design perspective, it appears Beretta made sure that gun can be chambered manually with proper design parts (firm spring and slanted extractor face). However from practical perspective, one shouldn't do it too much as it does put unnecessary wear/tear/pressure on extractor.
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Old November 19, 2012, 10:57 AM   #29
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It depends on the gun and the extractor design. Some guns like the 92FS are designed to be able to load rounds directly into the chamber (in fact it's listed as one of the features of the 92FS). Others such as the Cougar, which is similar to the 92 in so many ways, are not. The Cougar should only be fed from the magazine or the extractor could be damaged. If you were to try to load a cartridge directly, you would find it binds up when closing. The latter is the norm, guns like the 92FS are the exception to the rule.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:11 AM   #30
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Quote:
Quote:
Crow Hunter

#13

Extractors are normally hardened to resist wear. Hardened parts can chip if they are hit wrong.
Quote:
I thought they might be spring steel so they can flex.
They are high carbon steel, heat treated by heating, quenching, and then re-heating to a specific lower temperature. "Spring Steel" is steel that is hardened and drawn to produce the desired properties. 1911 extractors are a "spring". But abusing them by having them snap over a rim in the chamber will usually result in de-tuning (bending) them, requiring re-bending them. The usual failure mode is bending, not usually breaking or chipping, but it can and does happen.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:19 AM   #31
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The usual failure mode is bending, not usually breaking or chipping, but it can and does happen.
I have seen chipped Glock extractors, but never a bent one (that I was aware of anyway).

Is this just in reference to 1911 internal extractors?

I don't know much about them.

The Glock Extractors are MIM or cast then hardenend/annealed. I have never read an analysis done on them, so I don't know what steel alloy they are made of and if they are through hardened or just surface hardened.
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Old November 19, 2012, 01:06 PM   #32
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MLeake, I must of read the OPs post wrong since it seemed he was describing locking the slide open,inserting magazine and letting the slide go to chamber the round. I know how a semi-auto action works....it's just the original post is strange which is why in my post I also mentioned dropping a round directly in the chamber and THEN letting the slide go is okay in some guns which was separated from my other comment.
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Old November 19, 2012, 06:09 PM   #33
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Quote:
The usual failure mode is bending, not usually breaking or chipping, but it can and does happen.
Quote:
I have seen chipped Glock extractors, but never a bent one (that I was aware of anyway).

Is this just in reference to 1911 internal extractors?
Yes. They loose their shape ( a slight bend)in a 1911 and cause a failure hold the empty case until the ejector can knock it clear of the gun.
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Old November 19, 2012, 06:25 PM   #34
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Dragline45
Thanks for asking the question, I would have never thought to look into this. Once again the y'all have saved me from continueing with another bad habit.
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Old November 19, 2012, 06:39 PM   #35
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as its been stated.... No do not load a round by hand in an auto. It is not designed that way (esp in a 1911). And it is always best to let the slide go instead of babying it down to battery. This was how they were designed to function and doing so any other way can cause FTFs or FTEs and damage the extractor.
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Old November 19, 2012, 07:27 PM   #36
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Its an interesting discusion we are having hear, while I was taught not to drop the slide on a chambered round, and I haven't for the last 35 years, I believe that there is enough room in the extractor channel to allo the extractor to flex back with out causing any more spring set then when a round is chambered from the magazine.

Just resently I found a document by the US Army dated in 1914 that encourages the dropping of a cartridge into the chamber and dropping the slide, if you intend to carry in the ready with more then 7 round in your pistol, if you read page 13 under methodl of operation you will see that it is encouraged.

http://www.archive.org/details/descr...faut00unitrich


No. 1866
DESCRIPTION
OF THE
AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CALIBER .45
MODEL OF 1911
WITH RULES FOR MANAGEMENT. MEMORANDA OF
TRAJECTORY, AND DESCRIPTION
OF AMMUNITION
{SIX PLATES)
APRIL 1, 1912
REVISED FEBRUARY 14, 1914
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
1917

War Department,
Office of the Chief of Ordnance,
Washington, February 14, 1914.
This Manual is published for the information and government of the Regular
Army and Organized Militia of the United States.
By order of the Secretary of War
:
William Crozier,
Brigadier General, Chief of Ordnance,
(3)
368370

METHOD OF OPERATION.
A loaded magazine is placed in the handle and the slide (3) drawn
fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the
chamber (if the slide is open, push down the slide stop (8) to let the
slide (3) go forward). The hammer (23) is thus cocked and the
pistol is ready for firing.
If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for
firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots,
draw back the slide (3), insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber
of the barrel (2), allow the slide (3) to close, then lock the slide
(3) and the cocked hammer (23) by pressing the safety lock (36)
upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide (3) and hammer
(23) being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at
full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (36)
(which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the
pistol to the firing position

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

Last edited by cuba; November 19, 2012 at 07:42 PM.
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Old November 20, 2012, 12:32 PM   #37
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Hey Cuba, Just wonder if there is then a latter version that says don't do this, we are breaking too many extractors.

I can just speak of personal experience. The 92FS is designed to do this. Neither the 92 or any of my .22's cared. When I got my Cougar and went to load a dead round to practice with (empty casing so it couldn't be magazine fed), the Cougar was not happy. Lots of binding or resistance in trying to close the slide so I looked into it. The extractor on the Cougar does not move as the 92's nor does it slide over the cartridge well. You can force it but it clearly isn't good for it. Ammo should only be fed from the magazine. If you load a round and drop the slide, you won't notice it but if you close the slide manually, you can sure feel it's not good. My Ruger and Smith 5906 are the same as the Cougar. The 92FS is the only gun I will load directly into the chamber.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:13 PM   #38
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I had a Glock extractor break from manually loading. I don't do it anymore.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:31 PM   #39
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I started chambering by hand in my EDC USP 9mm compact after the recent discussion about bullet setback, but this discussion really got me thinking. I always assumed that the extractor snapped down over the rim of the casing in normal operation anyway. When I got home from work last night I loaded up a mag full of snap caps and closely examined the process... and BY GOLLY, CROW HUNTER WAS RIGHT! I won't chamber by hand anymore, just make sure I'm not chambering the same round repeatedly.

I also inspected the round I had been rechambering and noticed some fairly significant scuffs both on the rim and in the divot where the extractor sits when the round is in battery. That can't be a good thing either.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:54 PM   #40
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Thanks to everyone for the info. I have been hand chambering the first round in my Glock 21SF since I bought it in March. I will start stripping one from the mag and then top off.
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Old November 20, 2012, 02:21 PM   #41
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Quote:
When I got home from work last night I loaded up a mag full of snap caps and closely examined the process... and BY GOLLY, CROW HUNTER WAS RIGHT!


Can I quote you to my wife?

I always tell her this, but she doesn't believe me.

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Old November 20, 2012, 04:15 PM   #42
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I have read other threads and have read Beretta literature that the Beretta 92 and 96 series are designed to allow the single round feed without damage to the extractor or the gun.
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Old November 20, 2012, 04:40 PM   #43
cuba
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Interesting, that the Colt 1914 manual for the 1911 instructs chambering a round directly into the chamber and dropping the slide, and also the manual for the Baretta 92, wonder if this is a criteria for the Army.

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Old November 20, 2012, 04:46 PM   #44
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Not everybody who drafts a manual actually knows his subject.

So a 1914 manual for the 1911 says this is ok; I wonder what the AMU says about it?
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Old November 20, 2012, 05:30 PM   #45
cuba
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I would think that a manual put out by the US Army in 1914, 6 years after their commision for JMB to design a pistol to their spesification and criteria, should hold some wieght.

Maybe one of the criteria was to build a pistol that would function as a single shot incase the magazine was lost or damaged (something to think about)

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

Last edited by cuba; November 20, 2012 at 07:11 PM.
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Old November 20, 2012, 07:01 PM   #46
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I have read too many military manuals to place blind faith in any given one of them.

I have also seen some of the writing by committee that goes into drafting or updating them.

This doesn't make them worthless, by any stretch, but it does mean the "does this make sense?" test should always be in the corner of one's mind.

If one were to put blind faith into them, then officers reading the 1950's vintage Watch Officer's Guide should know those pesky enlisted sailors should not be trusted...

I found that both insulting and bizarre, but it was some of the (paraphrased) guidance in the book.
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Old November 20, 2012, 10:46 PM   #47
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Dragline 45 wrote

<<<The Beretta 92 was designed so you could manually load a round in the event of a magazine failure. It's one of the reasons it was picked as our military's sidearm. >>>

Maybe so....

But directly from the Beretta 92 manual:

LOADING THE MAGAZINE
• To load the magazine remove it from the pistol by depressing the magazine release button (Fig. 11).

NOTE: For the greatest insurance against accidental discharge due to inadvertent trigger pull, keep the manual safet engaged “ON” during loading or unloading.

NOTE: Pistols model G and D have no manual safety. The G model has a decocking lever only which, when released, returns to the ready to fire position.
and sear. Model G: when the manual safety lever is released after having been activated to lower the hammer, it automatically returns to the ready-to fire position. Models DS: The manual safety separates the firing pin from the hammer and interrupts the connection between trigger and sear. Models D: Without safety.

• Engage the manual safety D2, if present, by pushing the safety-decocking lever down all the way, so as to cover the red warning dot (Fig. 13). This safety lever rotation separates the firing pin from the hammer, lowers the hammer if cocked and interrupts the connection between trigger and sear.

• Push the loaded magazine into the pistol grip completely to insure catch engagement.

• ***Grasping the slide serrations with thumb and index finger, fully retract and release the slide (Fig. 14) to load the chamber.***

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To replace the round which has been chambered from the magazine:

• Remove the magazine from the pistol by depressing the magazine release button.

• Insert one more cartridge into the magazine.

• Push the loaded magazine into the pistol grip completely to insure catch engagement.
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Old November 21, 2012, 06:33 AM   #48
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re:

The extractor noses are angled in order to expedite single-loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. An emergency situation in which the ability to load and fire the pistol supersedes any concern with the extractor. So, it can be done on occasion without damage.

How often it can be done without compromising the extractor's service life is an unknown. It depends on how often, and...to a great extent...what the extractor is made of, and how "springy" it is. The old extractors would spring open quite easily. Many of the newer ones...not so much.

And it's not the increased lateral deflection that kills'em. It's the impact, and that's directly related to the angle on the nose and how fast the slide is moving when the nose of the extractor slams into the case rim.
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Old November 21, 2012, 08:17 AM   #49
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Of course, if you are in a "combat" situation where you have the time to single load your handgun to stay in the fight without getting killed, you have the time to knock/shake the empty cases out of the handgun if the extractor breaks off completely single loading it.

All the extractor does is pull the case out of the chamber.



The ability to single load a round in a HANDGUN in COMBAT is one of those, "Ummm, yeah" features.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:03 AM   #50
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Bullet setback is a function of the ammunition itself. What were you using? Case neck tension should prevent set back during any operation of the pistol. NRA, at one time, published a test for a given ammunition's ability to resist the normaling "set back" pressures encountered as the round is fed from the magazine, up the feed ramp, and into the barrel.

In their procedure, rounds were tested by pushing them against a block a block of wood or workbench, with a force of 40 lbs. If the bullet was not set back by that amount of force, it was deemed good for pistol use.

I don't have the source document, but that was the procedure and force applied.

Best Regards, Rod
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