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Old November 20, 2012, 11:42 AM   #26
polyphemus
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Quote:"John Browning would be the first to disagree with you"
OK,seeing as you know it and I have no way to check we'll leave at that.
He did design other firearms and also held a number of patents but the M1911 remains as close to design perfection as it gets,plenty of historical proof to that.
Its popularity has created a commercial demand which has in turn caused profit driven manufacturing the defects resulting from this have nothing to do with the original design.Just as an exercise get a set of prints and try to understand how all the parts fit and work together,may be then you can see the elegance and ingenuity an what mechanical perfection a master gunsmith accomplished one hundred years ago.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:54 PM   #27
Fishbed77
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polyphemus,
As you can see, this has now devolved into somewhat of a measuring contest. I will leave with one final comment:

No device ever created created by man has ever been, nor will ever be, perfect. If you can't grasp that, there's not really anything else to discuss.
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Old November 20, 2012, 08:59 PM   #28
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Of those who have posted they are dead set against a firing pin block, how many have experienced a problem with one? It is so far down the scale on factors to consider for reliability that it is a complete non-issue for me. Yet, I like those without a firing pin block ("Series 70"). Easier to completely strip and easier to get a superior trigger pull. As others have noted, safety is a non-issue with these with a titanium firing pin and heavier firing pin spring.

For me, the presence of a firing pin block will not stop me from buying a 1911 which I otherwise like even if I prefer those without.
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Old November 20, 2012, 10:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Easier to completely strip and easier to get a superior trigger pull. As others have noted, safety is a non-issue with these with a titanium firing pin and heavier firing pin spring.
I don't think so, I think the Series 80's are easier than the 70's because the FP block will let you keep the FP captive while you dis-assemble it, and allows the removal of the FP retainer without pressure on it, and without the chance of (boing) shooting your FP across the room. I assume you know the dis-assemble sequence of a Series 80 so will not detail it here.

I grew up shooting my dads Series 70 (but not cleaning it!), and grew up only ever dis-assembling my Series 80 after I bought it, and the few 70's I have done were different enough for me to give the nod for easy to the 80's. (since we're talking plungers/FP's only now, and not those confounded actuator levers in the frame, lol)
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Old November 21, 2012, 07:46 AM   #30
polyphemus
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Reassembling the trigger bar/sear/disconnector,requires no particular skill it
is a routine operation.The question is:if the center of gravity is heavily placed in
the grip then what are the chances that the pistol would fall on its muzzle?
There are four additional moving parts on the trigger so there's bound to be some difference in feel and pull weight,no big deal unless you are a "purist" like
yours truly.
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Old November 21, 2012, 08:05 AM   #31
Jim Watson
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It took a while for Colt to get the bugs out of the firing pin obstruction, there were some duds early on. But that was going on 30 years ago and recent production is pretty good.
In the interest of lawyerproofing a defensive weapon, I have an OACP with firing pin block intact. It Just Works.
Likewise, I have a 1991A1 that I reinstalled the lawyer levers in when IDPA got huffy about "safety devices." It is just as reliable as it ever was without the superfluous parts and it has been shot a lot both ways.

One of Hilton Yam's cronies, Drake Oldham, abused some guns with drop tests and found that a stock .45 would go off if dropped on concrete on the muzzle from as little as 4 feet. A 9mm diameter titanium firing pin did not fire until dropped 6 feet on concrete. More resilient flooring raised the drop height. I know MY gun would not fire when dropped 6 feet on a linoleum over wood floor.

I would not worry about it and I would not mess with it. I have guns both ways and use them all.
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Old November 21, 2012, 11:59 AM   #32
polyphemus
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drop test

Unloaded (no magazine)and holding it by the serration,it does fall on its muzzle
consistently.The series 80 firing pin block therefore has a function.
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Old November 21, 2012, 05:09 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson
One of Hilton Yam's cronies, Drake Oldham, abused some guns with drop tests and found that a stock .45 would go off if dropped on concrete on the muzzle from as little as 4 feet.
IIRC, Walt Kuleck, who was part of the abuse team, reported on the M1911.ORG forum that the test pistol would fire consistently when dropped from heights as low as three feet -- which is effectively waist high.
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Old November 21, 2012, 06:50 PM   #34
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80

There's an easy way to tell if your Series 80 system is headed for trouble.

Remove the plunger from the slide and look closely at it. If the corner above the concave portion appears to be splined, the plunger isn't being lifted quite high enough to allow the firing pin to clear it...which means that particular gun needs a different plunger lever. Not sure if Colt will send one. They may want you to send the gun in for installation and timing check.

Or...the quick and dirty way...heat the lever arm and bend it upward for a little more lift. It rarely requires more than about .010 inch.
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Old November 21, 2012, 11:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
I've changed out the plunger several times whenever it starts to get battered around the inside edge where it rides the FP.

Sounds like Edward's is marginal, then.
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Old November 21, 2012, 11:20 PM   #36
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80

Quote:
Sounds like Edward's is marginal, then.
Yeppers.
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Old November 21, 2012, 11:52 PM   #37
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Really. Perhaps a trip back to Colt is in order. It's been doing that for as long as I can remember, lol. I just keep changing the plunger & spring. I thought it was the nature of the beast with them. Good thing I keep an eye on it. Thanks for info.
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Old November 22, 2012, 01:07 AM   #38
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First:

You can not simply remove the FP safety parts in your Colt. There will be slop--LOTS of it--in the sear and hammer interface. This will lead to premature wear.

Second:

NO gunsmith worth his or her salt will de-activate a factory installed safety device.

Third:

I have a Colt Enhanced Series 80. I have done some modifications to it--a lightweight trigger, Brown beavertail and Bo-Mar rear sights with a dovetailed front. I have had this pistol since 1993; with the exception of the parts noted above--and a few recoil spring changes--it is still 100% factory original, to include the safety parts.

The pistol has NEVER failed to feed or fire, as long as I use good magazines and ammunition.

How much confidence do I have in it? It is my primary duty sidearm, and has been now for 13 years.

Don't worry about the safety parts. It works fine. Trust me.
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Old November 22, 2012, 07:40 AM   #39
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Leverage

The specs for proper timing are:

The top of the plunger lever above the frame .060-.065 inch with all trigger pretravel removed and .090-.095 inch with the trigger held full rearward.

99% of the time, the #2 lever will correct a slow timing issue in a stock pistol. If Colt won't send one, try Cylinder & Slide. They're pretty cheap, so ordering both a #2 and a #3 might be the best approach.

Quote:
NO gunsmith worth his or her salt will de-activate a factory installed safety device.
Not if he's smart, he won't. My older pair of 1991A1 range beaters have been both so modified by yours truly. I'm the only one who fires or even handles the guns if they're loaded. No exceptions. If your best buddy shoots himself in the foot...even if the inclusion of the parts would have made no difference...you're open to a ruinous lawsuit even if you win...which you probably won't.

And don't think that your best-bud-for-life wouldn't sue you. After a year out of work, when his medical insurance stops paying, and one of his cars has been repossessed, and the mortgage company is threatening to forclose and his kids' college fund is rapidly depleting...your assets will be mighty tempting.
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Last edited by 1911Tuner; November 22, 2012 at 07:51 AM.
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Old November 22, 2012, 07:58 AM   #40
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Quote:
NO gunsmith worth his or her salt will de-activate a factory installed safety device
I remove them all the time, and never looked back once. It is not a safety device, it's an idocracy invented to make some queer lawyer happy or maybe as a marketing strategy to sell more guns as 'new and improved'.

There are already three safety devices on a series 70: The hammer and slide lock, the grip/trigger lock, and of course the trigger itself which on any gun is the most important safety device of all besides your own brain!

The 1911 was designed as a military side arm, as such it is supposed to perform in any condition. How useful is a gun that has the firing pin LOCKED by default? It does not take much dirt to clog the tiny mechanism rendering the gun and your life useless. The US military used the series 70 for how many years?

I'm glad when Ruger released its 1911, it opted out for the series 70.

Once gain, get rid of the plumbing!
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:45 AM   #41
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re:

Quote:
It is not a safety device, it's an idocracy invented to make some queer lawyer happy or maybe as a marketing strategy to sell more guns as 'new and improved'.
In a civil litigation, it wouldn't matter. All that would matter is that you deactivated a designed-in safety device, and would be used to show reckless disregard.

Quote:
There are already three safety devices on a series 70: The hammer and slide lock, the grip/trigger lock, and of course the trigger itself
There is no hammer lock. The manual safety doesn't lock or block the hammer. If the sear were to suddenly disintegrate into dust, the hammer will fall, and it'll wipe the thumb safety off faster than you can do it with your thumb. Bang. It's fortunate that this isn't likely to happen.

Quote:
The US military used the series 70 for how many years?
The US military never issued a Series 70 pistol.

That said, I'm not a fan of Series 80 "Lawyer" parts. I much prefer the original design, and all my carry pistols are of that design...even though I've never had a single problem with any of the numerous intact Series 80 pistols that I've owned.

I removed the parts from my beaters for one reason. I shoot a lot, and 99.9% of my ammunition is handloaded with my home-cast bullets and soft lube. Nasty stuff that requires fairly frequent detail stripping...about every 2000-2500 rounds...and I got tired of fiddling with the extra parts. The spacer simplifies the process and saves time, which is at a premium for me.

The removal of the plunger and tiny spring in the slide eliminates the possibility of losing one or the other. With my aging eyes, the probability of finding the spring is nearly zip. Even though I know how to remove it with minimal risk of loss...Murphy is alive and well, and he never sleeps.
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Old November 22, 2012, 02:13 PM   #42
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickNitro71
Quote:
NO gunsmith worth his or her salt will de-activate a factory installed safety device
I remove them all the time, and never looked back once. It is not a safety device, it's an idocracy invented to make some queer lawyer happy or maybe as a marketing strategy to sell more guns as 'new and improved'.
It most certainly is a safety device, and the reason for it has been well-stated. If it were only a Colt marketing ploy, why is the exact same system also used by Para USA, SIG Arms, Remington, Taurus, Kahr/Auto-Ordnance, and a few other 1911 makers I can't recall at the moment? And then there's Kimber and Smith & Wesson, each of whom uses a different mechanism to accomplish the same purpose.

Are you a professional gunsmith? If so, you are the first I have ever heard of who will remove this (or any) safety from a firearm. In fact, I have heard of professional gunsmiths who won't accept a series 80 1911 in for work if the firing pin safety has been removed, unless the owner of the pistol agrees to allow the 'smith to re-install it. There's a very simple reason: Liability.

I used to prefer 1911s without the firing pin safety for carry as well as range. (Despite the fact that my competition pistols have the safety intact and have excellent triggers measuring about 3-3/4 pounds.) After reading Walt Kuleck's report on the results of his and Drake's drop tests, I have retired any non-Series 80 pistols from the carry rotation.
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Old November 22, 2012, 02:39 PM   #43
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Quote:
All that would matter is that you deactivated a designed-in safety device, and would be used to show reckless disregard.
No, it just showed that I have converted the gun the way it was ORIGINALLY designed by a guy smarter than all the people from Colt combined.

Quote:
There is no hammer lock. The manual safety doesn't lock or block the hammer.
Chicken and egg as the sear is locked to the HAMMER with the manual safety.

Quote:
The US military never issued a Series 70 pistol.
Really? Prior to the Beretta 92 they must have issued series 80s then?

So what side gun did the US military had from 1911 to 1990?

It was called M1911 and by all means it was a series 70 not an 80.

Quote:
Are you a professional gunsmith?
Yes I'm a gunsmith but it is not my profession and yes I do not accept the series 80 at all and I'll be more than glad to convert any series 80 into 70 any day of the week. Sue me if you like.

Quote:
so, you are the first I have ever heard of who will remove this (or any) safety from a firearm
At last first at something!

These guys must be completely nuts too selling this spacer then:

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-par...x#.UK5-rXcVkfA

I just recognize the brilliance of John's original design and the absurdity of the series 80.

Happy thanksgiving and please get rid of that idiotic plumbing! See you in court!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 80-70.jpg (29.0 KB, 5 views)
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Old November 22, 2012, 03:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
Really? Prior to the Beretta 92 they must have issued series 80s then?

So what side gun did the US military had from 1911 to 1990?
The US military never issued a "Series" anything.

Quote:
It was called M1911 and by all means it was a series 70 not an 80.
Colt Series 70 pistols were introduced in 1973. Series 70 identifies those pistols that were equipped with collet bushings and Accurizer (tm) barrels, which were the forerunners of today's barrels with enlarged muzzles. In the early days of the Series 80...introduced in 1983...a few were also equipped with the barrel and bushing, but this was due to Colt not being wasteful. For a short time, Series 70 and Series 80 pistols were being produced at the same time.

There were no Series 70 Commanders...lightweight or otherwise. All Series 70 Colts were 5-inch pistols. Neither were there any Series 70 Springfields or Kimbers, etc. Series 70 and Series 80 are Colt trademarks, although the term "Series 70" has come to be taken as "Doesn't have the lawyer parts."

And the thumb safety doesn't "lock" the sear. It blocks the sear's movement, but doesn't lock it. Correctly fitted, it barely touches the sear, and in some pistols, it doesn't even touch it. Because the hammers had long, undersquare hooks, the Army Ordnance specs allowed for .005 inch of sear movement with the safety engaged.

So, no. No sear lock occurs.

The "locked" part of Cocked and Locked refers to the slide.

Quote:
Yes I'm a gunsmith but it is not my profession and yes I do not accept the series 80 at all and I'll be more than glad to convert any series 80 into 70 any day of the week. Sue me if you like.
I've been wrenchin' on 1911 pistols since 1965, and I don't wish to sue anybody, and what you do as far as removing or disabling mechanical safeties is 100% your call. My comment wasn't directed at you, anyway. It was rather thrown out to give those who would remove theirs another perspective.

And those little frame fillers were never intended to be permanent. Their purpose was originally for gunsmiths who wanted to save time doing trigger jobs...so they wouldn't have to fiddle with the extra parts every time they checked their work.
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Old November 22, 2012, 04:20 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknitro71
These guys must be completely nuts too selling this spacer then:

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-par...x#.UK5-rXcVkfA
And if you read what Brownells says about it, it is intended to be used for bench testing, not for permanent installation.
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Old November 22, 2012, 04:32 PM   #46
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And you should never carry a gun with a round in the chamber, never holster a gun with a cocked hammer, and never shoot the gun unless the manual is being held in the other hand, etc.
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Old November 22, 2012, 04:54 PM   #47
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Okay, Series 80 question here...

I have a -1991A1, and aside from the finish, small sights, and plastic trigger, I have no real problems with it.

The finish I have made pice with, the sights I can fix, however, would it possible to change out the trigger and not substanially alter the gun? Specifically the reliability and saftey of it?
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Old November 22, 2012, 04:58 PM   #48
polyphemus
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Fellows did you do any shooting today?
Happy Thanksgiving! and yes John Moses Browning was smarter than all of Colt
pointy headed engineers put together.And that goes for S&W too!
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Old November 22, 2012, 05:03 PM   #49
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re:

Quote:
The finish I have made pice with, the sights I can fix, however, would it possible to change out the trigger and not substanially alter the gun? Specifically the reliability and saftey of it?
The simple answer is...it depends. Some aftermarket triggers will and others won't. That's why Colt offers different plunger levers to accommodate for different trigger dimensions.

The most likely trouble spot comes with overtravel screws not allowing the trigger to move far enough to provide enough lift.

Quote:
And if you read what Brownells says about it, it is intended to be used for bench testing, not for permanent installation.
Exactly. It's too soft to be permanent. With mine, I have to use a smooth mill file to dress the flanging around the holes at every detail-strip, and replace the spacer after the 3rd dressing. If the flanges are allowed to get bad enough to contact the sear and keep it from resetting, it can cause all sorts of problems ranging from failure to hold full cock to burst-fire.
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Old November 22, 2012, 10:32 PM   #50
polyphemus
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"I have a -1991A1"
Just curious,what make?does that plastic trigger have an OT screw?and why wouldn't a decent after market replacement work without substantially changing anything?You can check functionality without firing the pistol and measure plunger lever lift against the figures above.Plastic grips were standard issue,plastic triggers would probably not cut it.
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