.223 through common household structures - Page 2

shawnmt6601 · November 19, 2012, 09:51 PM

hmmm

50BMG is doable. One of my best friends owns a Barrett M82. I didnt think about that. he has a 338 lapua mag as well.

Maybe thats beyond the focus of the testing, but maybe if enough people want to see it, I will do it

going to try out the 6.8 SPC and some 9mm next I think

My personal HD round is the 55 grain barnes TSX bullets as loaded by corbon. Over penetration is not an issue for me. Handgun ammo is 45 ACP corbon DPX 185 gr +P barnes solid copper HPs

Metal god · November 20, 2012, 02:47 AM

50BMG

ak2323 · November 20, 2012, 11:24 AM

Great link.

I think I'll stick with TAP but it's good to know if you need to shoot someone two rooms away who is hiding behind your Sofa, 855 will do it.

Willie Lowman · November 22, 2012, 12:49 AM

.50 BMG and .338 mag are getting a little far toward the realm of the imaginary when it comes to home defense.

That said, tests of .30-06 or .308 would be cool though...

K1500 · November 22, 2012, 12:44 PM

For me, a 5.56 is better than for home, self, and camp defense than a shotgun. The ONLY place where a shotgun is better is stopping power, and a 5.56 is no slouch in that department either.

ripnbst · November 22, 2012, 01:16 PM

I have some 45 gr varmint rounds loaded as a HD mag. Figure light and fast will be more easily stopped, less momentum.

Theohazard · November 22, 2012, 03:39 PM

Yeah, light, fast varmint rounds are perfect for HD, unless you're running a 1:7 twist. Then I'd stick with 55 gr. bullets, 50 at the lightest; but I'd test them first of course.

Theohazard · November 22, 2012, 03:48 PM

And of course, happy Thanksgiving everyone!

ATW525 · November 22, 2012, 10:07 PM

It's an interesting read. I'm especially surprised by the 7.62x39mm. I've seen people advocating this cartridge for increased barrier penetration over 5.45mm and 5.56mm. It seems like it came up short.

shawnmt6601 · November 23, 2012, 11:34 PM

I dont know why people say you need a heavier bullets for 1/7 twist and light bullets wont shoot as accurate

that is just not true. 1/7 is the most versatile twist for the AR15 and the 556 round

take a look here

http://looserounds.com/2012/06/13/17...myth-debunked/

Theohazard · November 24, 2012, 03:49 AM

I wasn't advising 55 gr. bullets or heavier in a 1:7 twist because of accuracy. Very light bullets in a 1:7 twist rifle can end up spinning so fast that the jacket completely shreds off the bullet due to centrifugal force. Sometimes it looks like a weird flash in front of your muzzle, but the way to tell for sure that the bullet came apart in mid-air is by the odd holes in the target.

An over-stabilized bullet can have issues at longer ranges. Sure, an over-stabilized bullet is a heck of a lot better than an under-stabilized one, but at longer ranges a 50 gr. bullet is going to work better in a 1:8 or 1:9 rifle than in a 1:7.

At home-defense ranges over-stabilization is isn't an issue, but the jacket separating in mid-air due to the bullet spinning too fast can be a problem. That's why I advised that if you have a 1:7 barrel you should test any home defense load that has a bullet 50 gr. and below, because jacket separation has been know to happen in 1:7 rifles using those bullets.

shawnmt6601 · December 2, 2012, 10:21 PM

In 20 years of shooting

I have never seen a light weight bullet jacket from a light weight bullet come apart from a 1/7 twist

its a 556 not a 22-250 or 220 swift

the over stabilization/ jacket destruction is a myth in the 223/556

Theohazard · December 3, 2012, 05:37 AM

It's definitely not a myth; jacket separation happens. Does it happen every time you shoot light loads in a 1:7? Of course not; but it still happens, and the best way to avoid it happening is to use bullets of an appropriate weight. Also, over-stabilization effects accuracy, especially at longer ranges. Is it as bad as an under-stabilized bullet? No. You might not even notice the difference at shorter ranges. But shooting very light bullets in a 1:7 is not ideal.

btmj · December 3, 2012, 12:06 PM

Agree. I know of at least one rifle, a 1:7 16" barrel AR-15 that can not shoot 45 grain ammo. The bullets fall apart at about 30 yards. M-193 55 grain is OK, but that particular gun is most accurate with 60+ grain projectiles.

Metal god · December 3, 2012, 08:07 PM

This is a thread I found about bullet disitegration in mid flight
http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-481986.html

Bartholomew Roberts · December 3, 2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

It's definitely not a myth; jacket separation happens. Does it happen every time you shoot light loads in a 1:7?

What are you calling a "light" load? I have seen this argument used to suggest 55gr is a bad choice for 1:7 twists but in tens of thousands of rounds downrange, I've never seen any 55gr come apart due to twist rate. I've read people report problems with 36gr varmint grenades, which are really questionable for defense or large mammals.

It seems to me that any round that has a realistic probability of spinning apart in a 1:7 .223 is probably not a good choice for self-defense out of any twist rate.

Theohazard · December 3, 2012, 10:09 PM

I'm talking about 45 grain and lower. I'd worry about 50 grain coming apart also, but I admit I've never seen it happen. 55 grain is fine in a 1:7 but you will generally be more accurate at longer ranges with a 1:8 or 1:9 using those bullets.

Bartholomew Roberts · December 3, 2012, 10:43 PM

I'd argue that the irregular nature of the jacket on most 55gr ammo (99% of it being cheap blasting ammo) plays a bigger role in accuracy differences than the weight. On the other hand Hornady 55gr TAP and Training ammo has been great out of 1:7 and 1:8 barrels for me.

Metal god · December 3, 2012, 11:05 PM

It's my understanding you only notice the over stabilization of bullets at the longer ranges of that particular bullet . If a bullet is spinning to fast as it starts slowing down the tip wants to stay up and not point down in the same plain the bullet is traveling or in the same angle as the bullets arc . I just happen to be talking about this with a friend the other day that knows more about this stuff then I do . It seemed to make sense to me .

Check out the recommended twist rates for the berger match bullets . I was a little surprised
http://www.bergerbullets.com/products/target-bullets/

November 20, 2012, 02:47 AM	#27
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 1,022	50BMG __________________ http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8878/guns200.jpg Happyness !

November 22, 2012, 12:49 AM	#29
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 1,932	.50 BMG and .338 mag are getting a little far toward the realm of the imaginary when it comes to home defense. That said, tests of .30-06 or .308 would be cool though... __________________ "No, it's not a silencer. This little doodad is my own invention. I call it a loudener." --Sledge Hammer

November 22, 2012, 03:39 PM	#32
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 375	Yeah, light, fast varmint rounds are perfect for HD, unless you're running a 1:7 twist. Then I'd stick with 55 gr. bullets, 50 at the lightest; but I'd test them first of course. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

November 22, 2012, 03:48 PM	#33
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 375	And of course, happy Thanksgiving everyone! __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

November 24, 2012, 03:49 AM	#36
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 375	I wasn't advising 55 gr. bullets or heavier in a 1:7 twist because of accuracy. Very light bullets in a 1:7 twist rifle can end up spinning so fast that the jacket completely shreds off the bullet due to centrifugal force. Sometimes it looks like a weird flash in front of your muzzle, but the way to tell for sure that the bullet came apart in mid-air is by the odd holes in the target. An over-stabilized bullet can have issues at longer ranges. Sure, an over-stabilized bullet is a heck of a lot better than an under-stabilized one, but at longer ranges a 50 gr. bullet is going to work better in a 1:8 or 1:9 rifle than in a 1:7. At home-defense ranges over-stabilization is isn't an issue, but the jacket separating in mid-air due to the bullet spinning too fast can be a problem. That's why I advised that if you have a 1:7 barrel you should test any home defense load that has a bullet 50 gr. and below, because jacket separation has been know to happen in 1:7 rifles using those bullets. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

November 19, 2012, 09:51 PM	#26
shawnmt6601 Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2012 Posts: 8	hmmm 50BMG is doable. One of my best friends owns a Barrett M82. I didnt think about that. he has a 338 lapua mag as well. Maybe thats beyond the focus of the testing, but maybe if enough people want to see it, I will do it going to try out the 6.8 SPC and some 9mm next I think My personal HD round is the 55 grain barnes TSX bullets as loaded by corbon. Over penetration is not an issue for me. Handgun ammo is 45 ACP corbon DPX 185 gr +P barnes solid copper HPs

November 20, 2012, 11:24 AM	#28
ak2323 Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 190	Great link. I think I'll stick with TAP but it's good to know if you need to shoot someone two rooms away who is hiding behind your Sofa, 855 will do it.

November 22, 2012, 12:44 PM	#30
K1500 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 132	For me, a 5.56 is better than for home, self, and camp defense than a shotgun. The ONLY place where a shotgun is better is stopping power, and a 5.56 is no slouch in that department either.

November 22, 2012, 01:16 PM	#31
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,038	I have some 45 gr varmint rounds loaded as a HD mag. Figure light and fast will be more easily stopped, less momentum.

November 22, 2012, 10:07 PM	#34
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,659	It's an interesting read. I'm especially surprised by the 7.62x39mm. I've seen people advocating this cartridge for increased barrier penetration over 5.45mm and 5.56mm. It seems like it came up short.

November 23, 2012, 11:34 PM	#35
shawnmt6601 Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2012 Posts: 8	I dont know why people say you need a heavier bullets for 1/7 twist and light bullets wont shoot as accurate that is just not true. 1/7 is the most versatile twist for the AR15 and the 556 round take a look here http://looserounds.com/2012/06/13/17...myth-debunked/

December 2, 2012, 10:21 PM	#37
shawnmt6601 Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2012 Posts: 8	In 20 years of shooting I have never seen a light weight bullet jacket from a light weight bullet come apart from a 1/7 twist its a 556 not a 22-250 or 220 swift the over stabilization/ jacket destruction is a myth in the 223/556

December 3, 2012, 05:37 AM	#38
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 375	It's definitely not a myth; jacket separation happens. Does it happen every time you shoot light loads in a 1:7? Of course not; but it still happens, and the best way to avoid it happening is to use bullets of an appropriate weight. Also, over-stabilization effects accuracy, especially at longer ranges. Is it as bad as an under-stabilized bullet? No. You might not even notice the difference at shorter ranges. But shooting very light bullets in a 1:7 is not ideal. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

December 3, 2012, 12:06 PM	#39
btmj Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2011 Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 502	Agree. I know of at least one rifle, a 1:7 16" barrel AR-15 that can not shoot 45 grain ammo. The bullets fall apart at about 30 yards. M-193 55 grain is OK, but that particular gun is most accurate with 60+ grain projectiles.

December 3, 2012, 08:07 PM	#40
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 1,022	This is a thread I found about bullet disitegration in mid flight http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-481986.html __________________ http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8878/guns200.jpg Happyness !

December 3, 2012, 10:09 PM	#42
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 375	I'm talking about 45 grain and lower. I'd worry about 50 grain coming apart also, but I admit I've never seen it happen. 55 grain is fine in a 1:7 but you will generally be more accurate at longer ranges with a 1:8 or 1:9 using those bullets. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

December 3, 2012, 10:43 PM	#43
Bartholomew Roberts Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 5,386	I'd argue that the irregular nature of the jacket on most 55gr ammo (99% of it being cheap blasting ammo) plays a bigger role in accuracy differences than the weight. On the other hand Hornady 55gr TAP and Training ammo has been great out of 1:7 and 1:8 barrels for me.

December 3, 2012, 11:05 PM	#44
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 1,022	It's my understanding you only notice the over stabilization of bullets at the longer ranges of that particular bullet . If a bullet is spinning to fast as it starts slowing down the tip wants to stay up and not point down in the same plain the bullet is traveling or in the same angle as the bullets arc . I just happen to be talking about this with a friend the other day that knows more about this stuff then I do . It seemed to make sense to me . Check out the recommended twist rates for the berger match bullets . I was a little surprised http://www.bergerbullets.com/products/target-bullets/ __________________ http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8878/guns200.jpg Happyness !