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Old October 25, 2012, 06:33 PM   #26
raimius
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At least in Chicago, "everyone that can carry" consists of LEOs and licensed security workers on the job. That's not very many people. Of course, a fair number of gang-bangers will be carrying, as well. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, and the only people I knew who carried firearms were cops. The idea of an average joe carrying was such a foreign concept that the local news did a special story on it when they found someone who figured out the "unloaded concealed carry" loophole. The news wasn't going with the "look at this intelligent guy" angle either!
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Old October 25, 2012, 06:49 PM   #27
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...As far as I know Chicago has no carry law or it's very limited, so carrying a gun can make you a bad guy too, but would you rather be caught without one....
We do not encourage or condone illegal conduct here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...People that work in those cities still gotta be able to protect what they work for and themselves and families, so when you go to places like that I would think in some cases it may be safer than you think cause likely everybody that can carry is carrying,,...
And do you have any actual evidence that in places where ordinary people can not legally carry guns substantial numbers of otherwise honest people are violating the law and carrying guns?
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Old October 25, 2012, 08:05 PM   #28
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To back Franks original point, let me offer a scenario that I was involved in. My wife, children ( ranging from 4-7 years old), and I were walking down the sixteenth street mall in Denver. This is a outdoor mall, fairly upscale, in downtown Denver.
As we were walking in larger crowds In an urban setting, I was maintaining a little higher awareness than usual. I became aware that there were two people who seemed to be pacing us, on our side of the street. I decided I had a sudden interest in the window display in front of me and stopped us all right there, sure enough both of them stopped, glanced at each other, then at someone else across the street that I had noticed before as well.
Fairly typical looking teenagers, it would have been easy to miss them. At this point I KNEW from their anxiety and the general "I'm up to no good" look they all had that something was up here. At that point I moved the wife and children behind me up next to the wall, my annoyed wife asking me what exactly I was doing. I announced in a loud voice that was meant to carry" we are not moving anywhere until those three following us leave, that one there, that one there, and that one across the street!", pointing as I talked. The three looked at each other again, guilt unmistakable, and ran off in three different directions.
This was before cell phones and concealed carry laws became common, yet I don't know if I would act differently now. My actions forestalled a physical confrontation, headed it off at the pass so to speak. The best fight in my opinion being the one you don't have. Nowadays the temptation would be strong to continue to lead them and call LE hoping to catch and remove the predators knowing that I go into those situations armed. That would be the testosterone in me talking, and I am now old enough to use the proper label for it, moronic stupidity.
Listen to grumpy old uncle scrub, fight only when you have to, run if you can, and remember THE ONLY WAY YOU GET MULTIPLE CHOICES IS TO PAY ATTENTION!
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:08 PM   #29
rodeo roy
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Which part condones illegal activity?

People in Chicago surely carry some use loopholes in the laws others openly break the law. Having lived in Chicago, owned a business in Chicago, my sister, aunts and many close cousins live in Chicago. One cousin is a Sgt. w/ Chicago PD. I'm in Chicago often it's a short 6 hour drive from my home in Detroit. 5hrs 38min from my driveway to her front door about 3blocks down lake shore dr from McCormick place.

I would say I have a good read on what happens in both places. I know more than a few realtors and insurance professionals that own and likely carry handguns and they know the law in Chicago.

As far as in my hometown, due to the nature of my work I do see lots of people that own guns that don't have carry permits, at least some of them do carry at least if you believe the news.

I have also been to New Orleans a lot, lived in Atlanta, and Jamaica (Queens). Jacksonville. Fla and DC for about 90 days each

I believe in the laws of the government which I live, personally I don't break them I got waaay too much to lose, I'd be lying to say I don't know people that do break them.

Last edited by rodeo roy; October 25, 2012 at 09:21 PM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:12 PM   #30
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
....People in Chicago surely carry some use loopholes in the laws others openly break the law. Having lived in Chicago, owned a business in Chicago, my sister, aunts and serversl close cousins live in Chicago....
Well perhaps you'd like to explain the loopholes to us.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:31 PM   #31
rodeo roy
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Why? Really what good would that do for you? What I know or don't know is of real concern of yours. It's one thing to offer differing veiws on the topic, but it seems strange that you would want to question me. Why?
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:42 PM   #32
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Rodeo roy, am I to understand that you're trying to say that Detroit does not have a violent crime problem because so many people carry legally and illegally?

It seems that you are unfamiliar with the law in IL and Chicago. You cannot carry in IL unless you are LE or security, you couldn't even have a handgun in Chicago until a couple of years ago. To say that anyone, that's not part of the previously stipulated categories, carries legally via some loophole in Chicago is flat out wrong.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:42 PM   #33
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
Why? Really what good would that do for you? What I know or don't know is of real concern of yours. It's one thing to offer differing veiws on the topic, but it seems strange that you would want to question me. Why?
Because as far as I know, there are no loopholes under the law in Chicago, or Illinois for that matter, that would allow an ordinary person to legally carry a loaded gun concealed in public.

My concern is that insofar as possible accurate information be provided on this board. If you claim that there are loopholes that permit an ordinary person to carry a loaded gun concealed in Chicago, it's not unreasonable to expect you to provide evidence supporting that claim. Otherwise folks reading your posts might be misled to their detriment.

And if there are no such loopholes, your statement in post 24 (emphasis added):
Quote:
...As far as I know Chicago has no carry law or it's very limited, so carrying a gun can make you a bad guy too, but would you rather be caught without one....
is condoning or encouraging illegal activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...What I know or don't know is of real concern of yours...
While it's true that as long as you're keeping it to yourself, what you know or don't know is none of my concern. But when you post here, whether or not what you post is accurate is very much my concern.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:25 PM   #34
rodeo roy
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Detroit has a violent crime problem to be sure. People here have responded by arming themselves some do legally others make a choice to do it anyway hoping the police will go easy.

Open carry is allowed here in some places so you see grandpa and grandma carrying in the supermarket. The bad guy really don't know who got a gun and who don't. With that said lots of desperate people take chances a really weekly some bg is getting shot by an armed citizen.

People I know in Chicago carry unloaded guns some in locked trunks, I've known some that "work " for security companies. One lady started a company. I consider those as loopholes.

Frank you do a good job at citing post please cite my post that I personally condoned any illegal activity there or any where. I know it has happen, I've seen it first hand.

Your board your rules

Last edited by rodeo roy; October 25, 2012 at 10:36 PM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:44 PM   #35
sigcurious
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So you equate legally transporting a firearm to carrying? Or setting up a company to carry a "loophole", even though they would have to be on duty to carry. Doesn't seem like much a loop hole, sounds like running a security business and carrying during the performance of your duties. If they're carrying otherwise, they're doing it illegally.

Just to be clear these are the exemptions for security guards etc.

Quote:
(5) Persons licensed as private security contractors, private detectives, or private alarm contractors, or employed by an agency certified by the Department of Professional Regulation,if their duties include the
carrying of a weapon
under the provisions of the Private Detective, Private Alarm, and Private Security
Act of 1983, while actually engaged in the performance of the duties of their employment or commuting
between their homes and places of employment, provided that such commuting is accomplished within
one hour from departure from home or place of employment
, as the case may be.

(6) Any person regularly employed in a commercial or industrial operation as a security guard for the protection of persons employed and private property related to such commercial or industrial operation, while
actually engaged in the performance of his or her duty or traveling between sites or properties belonging
to the employer,
and who, as a security guard, is a member of a security force of at least 5 persons
registered with the Department of Professional Regulation;
Source

Last edited by sigcurious; October 25, 2012 at 10:54 PM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:53 PM   #36
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...Frank you do a good job at citing post please cite my post that I personally condoned any illegal activity there or any where....
I did. I'll do it again -- your statement in post 24 (emphasis added):
Quote:
...As far as I know Chicago has no carry law or it's very limited, so carrying a gun can make you a bad guy too, but would you rather be caught without one....
People can read it and decide for themselves if asking folks if they'd like to be caught without a gun even though it's illegal to carry one is encouraging or condoning illegal activity. I think it is. Anyone reading this thread can decide for himself.
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Old October 28, 2012, 11:57 AM   #37
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Quote:
I don't disagree with the above post. It's just that people tend to preach awareness at what I'd call a low or tactical level (like looking for escape routes and things like that). I think you can minimize the need for that if you are aware of things on a grander scale.

I think you start by being aware of the consequences of where you tend to live and work and what you do. It isn't always easy to change these things. However, it is something one might consider.

Once those issues are decided, I think you should be aware of where you go, when you go there, what you do and who you hang around with. For example, if I am leaving to drive somwhere before the sun comes up, I fill up the car the day before - no need to be at some "stop and rob" out on the highway in the dark if some prior planning can avoid it.

That leaves you with situations that are less risky. Or you could say there is less chance of having something bad happen. I'm not saying you don't have to aware of what's around you, but you shouldn't have to be wound tighter than a two dollar watch all the time either. That can lead to bad decisions.

My goal is to depart this life having never had to defend myself or even having threatened to do so. I don't even want to have come close to doing so if I can help it.

The way to do that - in my opinion - is to be aware of potential consequences at a fairly grand scale and try to mitigate risk at that level.

This is exactly the kind of posts that I enjoy reading here at TFL. It reminds us of a common sense way of thinking that is instilled in most people from the time they were young. It doesnt have to have code names or initials
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Old November 1, 2012, 11:54 PM   #38
shortwave
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Just for clarification.

FBI stats for the top five most violent cities in the US with a population over 50,000

1)Camden NJ
2)Flint Mich.
3)Saginaw Mich.
4)Detroit Mich.
5)St. Louis

FWIW...Flint Mich. still holds the dubious honor of being ranked for the 2nd consecutive year as holding the #1 spot for cities with a populace of 100,000 or more people.

I don't think the thugs in Detroit/Flint Michigan much care whether the average Joe is carrying or not.
Too, I have relatives/friends that are MSP that work in Detroit Metro(aka, 'the war zone' to most Mich. LE) and they will tell you that the thugs there would just as soon shoot at LE then anyone else that gets in their way.

Last edited by shortwave; November 2, 2012 at 12:08 AM.
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Old November 2, 2012, 12:05 AM   #39
p loader
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Can someone please summarize (read: Cliff's Notes) this thread into 2 or 3 bullet points?

Thanks
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Old November 2, 2012, 12:24 AM   #40
shortwave
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Quote:
Can someone please summarize (read: Cliff's Notes) this thread into 2 or 3 bullet points?

Thanks
Oooops...sorry p loader.

1) Situational awareness is very important.

2) Using common sense as to when and where we travel in our daily lives can greatly reduce our chances of encounters with BG's.

Hmm...you said 2 or 3...okay

3) Practice SD shooting at distance's out to 50yds.

You'll have to settle for 4

4) If you have to shoot in SD, you damn well must be able to prove your(or someone nearby) lives were in danger.

How's that?
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Old November 2, 2012, 12:49 AM   #41
p loader
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Awesome thanks for that! I agree on all counts, SA is probably the most important thing one can have.
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Old November 2, 2012, 08:25 AM   #42
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Risk Mitigation is as important as situational awareness. I don't go into bad neighborhoods or high crime areas. I don't get drunk at downtown bars at night and then stagger around looking for my car (dangerous on two fronts), yet many of our young people do similar or even riskier activities.

Some years ago, a friend and his fiancee attended a concert at a music hall in a major city. Rather than pay the $10 parking fee in a supervised parking deck, they decided to save the money and park for free about 8 blocks from the event center. After the concert, as they walked back to their car, they were attacked and beaten very badly. No robbery took place. An investigating police officer told them later that the assault was part of a gang initiation and that there have been quite a few similar incidents. In recent years these types of attacks have acquired a name "Knockout Kings." Afterward, the young couple each admitted that they had uneasy feelings about parking far away, but both of them buried or ignored those instincts, nor mentioned those concerns to each other that night.

Situational awareness is equally important but unfortunately too many of us "civilized" people ignore our gut instincts and pretend that danger signals are not real. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Don't ignore what your "gut" is telling you.

Last edited by Rifleman1952; November 2, 2012 at 10:33 AM.
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Old November 2, 2012, 09:23 AM   #43
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Well said rifleman
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Old November 2, 2012, 10:05 AM   #44
shortwave
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Quote:
Risk Mitigation is as important as situational awareness
I believe you are 100% correct Rifleman.
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Old November 6, 2012, 05:50 AM   #45
Brit
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Situation awareness is so very important. Some adults are in a zone of their own, clueless!

SA is not just in a bad City, walking the street.

For instance, many years ago (1968 visiting England, from Canada) two couples, my brother in law, my sister-in law, and my Wife, went out for supper.

My pushy Sister in law, walked into the the Indian Restaurant, my Wife behind her, my clueless Brother in law bringing up the rear.

I was parking the rental. These three adults missed the danger signs totally!

The end result, me in a one on 4 fist fight (Brother in Law not involved) and due to the fact I am handy in a fight, we walked out in one piece. I sustained cut knuckles on my right hand.

Visuals, no doorman (Bouncer) 4 late teens, early twenty scruffs, sitting in a booth, empty plates in front of them, looking about (run outs in waiting) the leader, easy to spot, making sure I saw him giving our two (very attractive) woman the kind of look that has rape in mind (or insult) helpful in leaving with out paying.

A table near the booth we were showed to, three young people, drunk, loud.

This part of Lancashire, UK, bad news! This was apparent to me in 30 seconds, my clueless companions, clueless!

That's were SA is so important!
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Old November 6, 2012, 02:09 PM   #46
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Foreforged said;

Quote:
Plain ole common sense and goodl ole "paying attention". The OP make a good point all around.

Over the past 10-15 years I have noticed this trend of trying to make common sense and paying attention into some highly intellectualized ideology filled with fancy Military sounding jargon and acronyms. All of which have meanings that have already been well established in common language for over a century.. they just dont sound as kool or sell merchandise.

Grand-ma and Grand-pa said it best:

G-ma: Pay attention and Be careful

G-pa: Eyes open..mouth shut
One of the best posts I've read on this site.
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Old November 17, 2012, 04:51 PM   #47
bearclaw46
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Ego

Don't forget to let your ego at home. Your ego can get you in a lot of trouble, esp if you think because you're packing, you can afford to mouth off to someone. As a good Sister of the cloth told me in grade school...."a word to the wise"....it's better to say you're sorry or not say anything at all and slink away than to get in a urinating contest over something stupid and get into a situation your big mouth can't get you out of. 90% of all one's troubles are caused by one's big mouth, another word to the wise.
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Old November 19, 2012, 07:24 PM   #48
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Your brain is your weapon, everything else is just an accessory.
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