The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 8, 2012, 09:44 PM   #26
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
scsov509, I don't know if this proves the cure but I found that by pushing the magazine upwards from the bottom with my finger and releasing the slide slowly or quickly, the bullets feed every time, indicating the magazine does indeed possibly sit too low.

I assume this is the problem but I don't know how much vertical play should be in the magazine. Using calipers I measure .030" of play and you mentioned you also have the same, which makes me wonder if that is not the problem. If not, at least I'm getting closer.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 06:00 AM   #27
1911Tuner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 605
Play

A little vertical play in the magazine is really neither here nor there, as long as the feed and barrel ramp angles are correct. When the magazine is full, the top round dives and hits the ramp farther down than when the magazine is at the mid-point. This is caused by the lack of cartridge support at the front on the top 2 rounds. So, how can a 32nd inch of vertical play in the magazine have any practical effect?

I have an unaltered GI Colt manufactured in early 1919 that has more than a 32nd inch, and it'll feed hollowpoints and SWC as readily as hardball...and it'll do it from the old "Hardball" magazines.

The 1911 was designed to function, and it was designed so as to allow for minor manufacturing glitches and fairly wide tolerances. If it's correctly built to spec and fed halfway decent ammunition from proper magazines, it will function. It doesn't have a choice. It's a machine.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck
1911Tuner is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 09:57 AM   #28
WVsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: WV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
A little vertical play in the magazine is really neither here nor there, as long as the feed and barrel ramp angles are correct. When the magazine is full, the top round dives and hits the ramp farther down than when the magazine is at the mid-point. This is caused by the lack of cartridge support at the front on the top 2 rounds. So, how can a 32nd inch of vertical play in the magazine have any practical effect?

I have an unaltered GI Colt manufactured in early 1919 that has more than a 32nd inch, and it'll feed hollowpoints and SWC as readily as hardball...and it'll do it from the old "Hardball" magazines.

The 1911 was designed to function, and it was designed so as to allow for minor manufacturing glitches and fairly wide tolerances. If it's correctly built to spec and fed halfway decent ammunition from proper magazines, it will function. It doesn't have a choice. It's a machine.
LOL... Listen to this man he knows what he is talking about. IMHO it is not a feedramp issue or a vertical play issue. It is a magazine issue. Inspect rebuild and or replace the mags and I am willing to bet you will end up with a 100% functioning 1911 again. Occam's razor is in full effect!!!!!

The gun functioned 100% at one time. You have not made any modifications to the gun since it ran properly. The gun only has 800 rounds through it. That is not enough to have worn out any parts again IMHO.

Have you shot the gun with other mags or used your mags in another 1911 that you know is functioning 100%? This would be my first step in trouble shooting. It will help you determine if it is in fact mag related again IMHO. Only once you have determined that it is not a mag related issue should you start to look at more complex explanations.
__________________
"Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all..." Sam from Ronin
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced. -Frank Zappa
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.-Frank Zappa
WVsig is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 10:08 AM   #29
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
1911Turner, Based on your comments on the first two rounds and the magazine play it sounds like my magazines are functioning correctly as that is what I see. Since I have never had any feed problem until just recently, obviously something has changed, which brings up the question, why does it feed normally if I push up on the magazine? I assume the feed and barrel ramp angles are unchanged and are not the issue. It sounds like the EGW magazine catch could correct the issue but if my magazine play is normal then maybe there is another issue.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 11:20 AM   #30
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 402
Personally I have been studying Tuner's writings for a long time and my worst nightmare is having him tell me :"you don't know what you're talking about".
Those two top rounds are dipping too much for normal feed,not enough cartridge support.Could it be that a little more spring pressure gives them that extra support to properly line up and go where they're intended to go?
polyphemus is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 12:51 PM   #31
1911Tuner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 605
Change

Quote:
Since I have never had any feed problem until just recently, obviously something has changed, which brings up the question, why does it feed normally if I push up on the magazine?
Since the problem seems to be magazine related, the change almost has to be with the magazine...and since the magazine(s) is/are undamaged...the spring would be the most likely culprit, since it's the part most subject to change with use. The next suspect would be the follower angle.

As to why it feeds when you push up on the magazine...*shrug*...who knows.
Try the EGW mag catch and see if it cures it. If it does, be happy.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck
1911Tuner is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 02:13 PM   #32
scsov509
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 758
Quote:
1911Turner, Based on your comments on the first two rounds and the magazine play it sounds like my magazines are functioning correctly as that is what I see. Since I have never had any feed problem until just recently, obviously something has changed, which brings up the question, why does it feed normally if I push up on the magazine? I assume the feed and barrel ramp angles are unchanged and are not the issue. It sounds like the EGW magazine catch could correct the issue but if my magazine play is normal then maybe there is another issue.
I think the whole issue of magazine play is confusing the matter a bit. A little vertical play is totally normal, and beyond that it probably doesn't tell us a whole lot to try to measure the amount of play that is normal particularly when we're comparing different guns and magazines spread across the country. The pertinent facts here are: 1) Some play is normal in all guns, and 2) Lessening the amount of play in your situation seems to resolve the feeding issue.

The EGW mag catch is in some sense a work around or band-aid solution to this sort of problem, and it's honestly one of multiple such solutions on the market. Aftermarket magazines like Wilson Combat and those similar to them accomplish the same thing by changing the design of the magazine body and follower, so that as a result the rounds in the magazine sit higher in relationship to the feed ramp. And as others have pointed out, you could probably also accomplish the same thing by changing the springs and/or followers in your existing magazines, which would again accomplish more or less the same thing in a different way.

If it were me I'd stop messing with those magazines and switch to an aftermarket magazine designed to postion the rounds a little higher from the start. But if you want to stick with those magazines then I'd suggest either the EGW catch or taking the time to tear them apart and rebuild them. Tripp Research and Wilson Combat both make great aftermarket rebuild kits that will work wonders on your magazines if you're willing to spend a few dollars on new springs and followers. I've gone that route on a few GI mags past their prime and been more than pleased with the results.

So several different solutions depending on how much time, money, and effort you want to throw at it.
scsov509 is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 03:13 PM   #33
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
I appreciate all the good advice. It doesn't make sense that 1/2 my mags are 4 months old and the others original (over 20 years old) and all started having problems about the same time, but could happen. I decided to go with the EGW mag catch and ordered it today. In the meantime I will try to find someone with similar mags and try them. I'm too cheap to try the better quality mags unless I find that's the problem. Thanks again.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 9, 2012, 05:22 PM   #34
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 5,006
Quote:
It doesn't make sense that 1/2 my mags are 4 months old and the others original (over 20 years old) and all started having problems about the same time, but could happen.
It doesn't make sense to me either-which leads me to believe there is likely something else causing the feed problem that is in play here. But, your caveat "could happen" does have some merit. Sometimes things happen for no ascertainable reason and that might well be the case here.

Quote:
I'm too cheap to try the better quality mags unless I find that's the problem.
I don't think you're being cheap; I think you're using your head. However, one of the upsides to investing in quality after-market magazines is that you can always put them to good use, so it's generally never a complete waste of money.
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 09:20 PM   #35
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
Here is an update on my feeding problem. I ordered and received the EGW magazine catch today. Upon installing it I found that the EGW is a bit over sized and the end with the screw head would not fit through the opening. After some nudging with a soft hammer I got it to go in and tapping it in and out about 100 times it began to fit better, however, once fully installed I can't eject the the magazine without a tap of the hammer because it's still binding somewhere.

Taking some measurements, compared to my original, the EGW is about .002" wider at the screw end and fifty thousands longer but most of the extra length is added to the eject button end so that it sticks out further. The screw head end does not fit flush with the frame either.

Having said that, I was able to install it to test it. Near as I can tell, with the magazine lifted higher now, all the rounds feed ok but it's a very tight fit with no vertical play in the magazine. Even though it's a tight fit, I believe they lock into place well enough.

Comparing both magazine latches, it appears my original has a significant wear spot on the latch tip (assuming the tip is supposed to look like my new one), possibly enough to cause my rounds to nose dive into the ramp. With only 800 or so rounds through this gun the wear seems very excessive. I've EGW to seek an answer on the over sized EGW latch.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 09:56 PM   #36
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 402
Zippy,I'm having some trouble with your nomenclature-latch tip?-
Replacement parts should not have to be hammered in,either they fit or they don't and that magazine not having any vertical play is not right,the frame has a recess precisely to allow for some play,the magazine should fit flush with the bottom,it sounds like these catches force the magazine into the recess and that is why there is no play,if the original catch had somehow failed then a Colt replacement would have been in order,stock parts are your first line of defense.
But you can't argue with success you write that the rounds load well so shoot them on down that's what the pistol's for.
polyphemus is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 10:18 PM   #37
WVsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: WV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
Here is an update on my feeding problem. I ordered and received the EGW magazine catch today. Upon installing it I found that the EGW is a bit over sized and the end with the screw head would not fit through the opening. After some nudging with a soft hammer I got it to go in and tapping it in and out about 100 times it began to fit better, however, once fully installed I can't eject the the magazine without a tap of the hammer because it's still binding somewhere.
Again I am perplexed why you took this route? You have not verified that the mag catch was the problem yet you have pounded one in and out of your frame 100 times. For the cost of the new mag catch you could have purchased a chip McCormick Power mag or other mag of equal quality and properly trouble shot this pistol. I hope you did not damage your frame. The part should have been fitted to the frame not pounded into the frame.

I am not trying to be harsh but the first course of action before you did anything else should have been to determine if the mags were the source of the issue.
__________________
"Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all..." Sam from Ronin
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced. -Frank Zappa
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.-Frank Zappa
WVsig is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 10:20 PM   #38
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
Thanks. The board suggested I go with EGW magazine latch to raise the magazine upwards a little. At this point I think you are correct and using a stock part will fix the problem now that I see the wear on the tip, the tip meaning the area of the magazine latch that contacts the magazine and slips into the magazines slot.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 10:33 PM   #39
WVsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: WV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
Since the problem seems to be magazine related, the change almost has to be with the magazine...and since the magazine(s) is/are undamaged...the spring would be the most likely culprit, since it's the part most subject to change with use. The next suspect would be the follower angle.

As to why it feeds when you push up on the magazine...*shrug*...who knows.
Try the EGW mag catch and see if it cures it. If it does, be happy.
This is the best advice you have been given. Again when dealing with 1911s always follow Occam's razor.

I know you stated some of the mags are new. Where did you purchase them. From time to time there have been batches of fake Colt mags with the "M" mark on them. These fakes where not made by Metalform and were often found on the gun show and secondary market. IIRC all 7 round Colt mags have hybrid feeding lips. Fakes have waddcutter feed lips.

Have you tested the gun with mags that are know to be 100% in another working 1911.
__________________
"Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all..." Sam from Ronin
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced. -Frank Zappa
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.-Frank Zappa
WVsig is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 10:46 PM   #40
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
No, have not tested the mags with another gun, etc., but will finally get a chance to tomorrow. I don't recall where I got the mags from, possibly Midway. Ran into a competition shooter today and he said only buy
Chip McCormick mags as that's what most use in competition and are outstanding and not over priced. Will see how it goes tomorrow but I do now think the wear on the latch maybe the problem.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 10:59 PM   #41
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 18,630
How about the slide stop? If the part of the slide stop that goes into the magazine well is too long or is bent slightly, the bullet of the top round of the magazine will hit it when the magazine is inserted and tip the top round downward, causing the feeding problem described.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 11:14 PM   #42
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
Near as I can tell, the slide stop is not a problem. I'm beginning to think the muffler bearings are bad.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 11:43 PM   #43
scsov509
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 758
A little fitting on aftermarket parts is to be expected on the 1911. You should be able to polish the mag release with a high grit sandpaper and get it fitting just fine, and sounds like it will allow you to get your existing magazines to work which is what you were wanting.
scsov509 is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 11:51 PM   #44
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,151
Your problem is with the magazine spring.

To verify, change one spring with a Wolff +5% (extra power) spring.

If your springs are new, then look to the follower. You can replace the magazine follower (the metal part on top of the spring) with a rounded top follower that holds the rounds higher.

Give it a shot.
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old November 17, 2012, 11:20 PM   #45
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
I took my .45 to the range today and shot the crap out of it. For some bizarre reason it had few nosedive feeding problems. I tried other friends magazines and one competition Chip McCormick mag but found they also produced the same problem. I'm convinced it's not my magazines now.

I did not try my new EGW mag latch as it doesn't fit properly and will return it to EGW and buy a new stock magazine latch to replace mine that appears to be worn. That may or may not be the problem but would like to eliminate that first since it seems to be missing metal where it contacts the magazine, possibly letting the mag drop down to low.

On the other hand, I'm not 100% sure and already mentioned this, but it seems that if I hold in the magazine release button as I insert the mag so there is no drag pushing it in, the round sits up higher where it should be and feeds okay.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 18, 2012, 02:58 AM   #46
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,151
Have you changed recoil springs? If you have--or if it is a newer spring, it sounds like the slide is actually running too fast. This frequently happens if you go above a factory weight (16lb) spring.

Here is a troubleshooting step...find a Wilson 47D magazine. The follower in the magazine prevents tipping of the round upon feeding. Give one a try, and let us know the results.
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old November 18, 2012, 07:23 AM   #47
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,115
I'm following this because my Colt God Cup does the exact same thing. Stresses me out. But with hollow points only. Any hollow points. Haven't shot it in a while. But as I recall last range trip it was flawless with ball ammunition.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old November 18, 2012, 08:08 PM   #48
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
If the Wilson magazine would prevent bullet tipping in the mag it probably would fix my problem but I think something else is causing it. I don't know of anyone with that model mag though. Thanks.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 01:19 PM   #49
Zippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 24
Update. I ordered a stock magazine latch (Caspian) from Brownell but like the EGW one, it too will not sit flush with the frame and is too tight of a fit. So I'm assuming no matter what I order, including my EGW and this new stock Caspian I just received, will have to be custom fit to my Gold Cup, which I don't know how to do. Both are about .008" too long. The shoulder of the push button side stops against the inside of the frame causing the other end to stick out the same distance. I would have grind off the blued surface or somehow grind down the shoulder but doubt that's the way to go.

Also, the Caspian replacement latch's cam locking pin, the tip that locks the pin into place, or whatever you call it, is too long and sticks out past the latch's housing preventing the latch from being inserted past this point where the pin hits the frame. Taking the pin out, the latch slides in but still will not sit flush and the push button will not depress because it's binding somewhere. Although this is the least of my problems.

Looking at my original mag latch again, I'm now not convinced it's the problem. What I thought was a chipped or worn off surface of my latch is actually the bottom side of the latch where all the friction occurs as it slides into the magazine. The top side of the latch that holds it in place appears normal. I can insert the Caspian latch far enough to determine if it will work and get the same nose dive problem. Am sending both latches back.

Wish I knew of a good 1911 gunsmith around here.

Last edited by Zippy; November 26, 2012 at 05:16 PM.
Zippy is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 12:44 PM   #50
Digger686
Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 47
I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would tend to rule out magazine problems at this stage. Primarily, I find it difficult to accept that 8-10 magazines of different vintages would all give the same problem, especially after such limited use. Also, the OP's trial with alternative magazines did not solve appear to solve the problem.

It does seem logical to conclude that the rounds are sitting too low in the frame. This could be caused by a number of factors, such as out of spec parts or manufacturing.

There are a few ways to address this problem. The OP could buy new magazines, which are designed to sit higher in the frame. The problem with this solution is that the gun will only work reliably when using these magazines; the OP would not be able to use a standard magazine.

While I think that upgrading the internals of the magazines would be worthwhile at some stage, I think that it is unlikely to solve this particular problem. If the problem was caused by weak magazine springs, then the problem is unlikely to resolve itself after the first few rounds have been fired from each magazine, when the spring tension has been reduced further.

I suspect that the EGW magazine catch may be the optimum solution, once correctly fitted. This will cause rounds to sit higher within the frame while still allowing the use of most magazines.

That's where I would start, anyway. Others may and will disagree
Digger686 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13843 seconds with 9 queries