The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 11, 2012, 09:00 PM   #1
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Question on Fox Savage Model B

Hi there everyone,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place but I have a question. I've had 3 gun smiths give me completely different answers and I really get the feeling that they're trolling me for money as all 3 made offers on the gun when I brought it to them. You know. "Oh this'll cost a couple hundred bucks to fix! I'll give you $200 for it though!"

I have a Fox Savage Model B. I love the gun. Named it "The Invalidator" (this gun makes your argument invalid). Cheesy, I know, but just using this to state that I like this gun.

Anyways, it fires okay. Though not flawlessly. I've noticed that it has a serious preference to ammos or one extractor won't release. Upon closer examination, I noticed one extractor has 2 bars going to it, the one that has a problem releasing only has 1. Not sure if it is meant to have 2, can see a divot for it but it isn't there. That extractor also has a little bit of wobble.

Unfortunately, I'm told they no longer make this gun. Because of this, I've had zero luck finding a tutorial on breaking this gun down. This is also where the gun smiths have started disagreeing. 1 has told me the gun is compatible with a Stevens 311. However, the other 2 said this was not true. When looking online, I've heard a LOT of people contradicting this. Heck, I haven't even found a proper set of take down instructions for this gun. Can figure it out to a point, but it isn't like modern double barrels.

Here are pictures, you'll notice the bar present in the left chamber but not on the right. There is a nub for it there, but no bar. Is there supposed to be one? Can it be fixed?




I appreciate all the help and I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum for this. I looked through for anything on this on the forum but didn't see anything.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 11, 2012, 09:11 PM   #2
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 6,180
Retire it, hang it on the wall, and buy yourself a new gun. I used to have one just like it. Had similar problems from day one. I owned the gun for 10 years and it literally spent more time in various gunsmiths shops than in my home. All types of problems. I liked it too, and shot it well when it worked.

The Savage model B is just a fancied up 311, but all of those guns were cheap budget guns made for the occasional shooter. The internal parts are made of cheap steel or stampings. Made to last a lifetime for the guy who shoots a box or 2 a year. Most are all used up by now and getting it repaired is going to be expensive and temporary. Fix one thing today and something else next year.
jmr40 is offline  
Old November 12, 2012, 09:27 AM   #3
OkieCruffler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2001
Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma
Posts: 1,502
Well I have a 311 here that dates back to 1953. I've been shooting it since 1984 and trust me, I shoot alot more than a box ot two a year. Did have to replace the firing pin spings a few years back, man was that a learning experience. I've had well over a dozen 311's and wish I had everyone of them back. That being said not all B's will swap with 311's and your's won't. The 311 has a single extractor that works both barrels with the BE's have dedicated extractors. From the looks of it you have a firing pin issue of some kind on that left side as well. Best place to find parts that I have found is numrich. At the very least it will get you a schematic.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=5631
__________________
John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood
OkieCruffler is offline  
Old November 12, 2012, 05:43 PM   #4
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
Early Model B's had a central rod that drove the extractor, and one guide rod further out on each side to keep the extended extractor from twisting - aka: dual guide rods.

Your Model B has one of the dual guide rods broken free/off one side of the extractor.

If you remove the forend (pull down on the front end) & unhinge the barrel set ( open the top lever 1st) to examine the underside, you should find a small setscrew or pin that retains the extractor in the holes bored for it & the guide rods beneath the rear of the barrels.

Remove the retainer, and slide out the extractor - the broken guide rod is most likely still in it's hole, and can also be fished out, to be welded back onto it's place on the extractor bar, the weld/slag filed down, and everything re-assembled.


If you have to farm out the welding, you may have to spend $20 or so.


BTW - That firing pin tip should NOT be protruding from the breech, so something's also up there.
It could be a buildup of crud in there, easily power flushed out with a spray can of solvent; or a mashed/tired FP return spring, which would need replacement.

Try the flush 1st.


.

Last edited by PetahW; November 13, 2012 at 09:30 AM.
PetahW is offline  
Old November 13, 2012, 12:49 AM   #5
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Thank you thank you thank you PetahW and OkieCruffler! Not sure what is up with the firing pin- truth be told, it isn't doing that now and don't know why it is like that in the photo. As for the extractor pin, I'll take that apart tomorrow and see what it yields. I'm... not very good at welding so might have to either
A) Find a replacement or
B) get some-one to weld it for me.

I'll tell you guys how it goes!
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 05:34 PM   #6
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Okay, I've taken it down and gotten the extractor out. The guide rod is stuck inside though- I can't remove it and have tried everything from jeweler's pliers to rare earth magnets. Suggestions?

There was some grease or something keeping the firing pin out on that pic, too. Cleaned it up nice and shiny and it works now.

Literally looks like the only issue on the gun is that broken rod.
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 05:43 PM   #7
OkieCruffler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2001
Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma
Posts: 1,502
Does the rod move any at all or is it stuck solid? I have removed stuck pins with a smaller pin and super glue but I wouldn't try it unless you have a steady hand and I really wouldn't try it if the pin is frozen in place.
__________________
John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood
OkieCruffler is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 07:21 PM   #8
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Doesn't move at all. Not in the slightest.

And don't think my hand is steady enough for that
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 07:27 PM   #9
OkieCruffler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2001
Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma
Posts: 1,502
Does the one on the other side come out? I'm just guessing at this point but you may be dealing with a part that is weilded in.
__________________
John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood
OkieCruffler is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 07:40 PM   #10
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Other one extracted perfectly and I cleaned it in its entirety. The one on the right is just stuck. It doesn't look welded in but it could be rusted/glued in. It looks like the guide rod snapped as the set screw is still present.

I'm almost of the feeling I could make a replacement part myself out of some wire and tap and die but I don't have anything near that small. I just can't get the original out.
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 07:43 PM   #11
OkieCruffler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2001
Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma
Posts: 1,502
That is a thinker. Could always have it drilled out by a good machinist I guess.
__________________
John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood
OkieCruffler is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 10:39 PM   #12
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
Time for a week-long bath in Kroil.
johnbt is offline  
Old November 16, 2012, 11:09 PM   #13
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Kroil?

Edit- nevermind, Google'd it. Not heard of the stuff but will see if I can find it local.
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 17, 2012, 11:07 AM   #14
OkieCruffler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2001
Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma
Posts: 1,502
Ah see, that's the difference in someone who has no patience (most likely adult onset ADHD) and someone who might actually have a good idea. A good kroil bath might just loosen that thing up. This thread has me shopping for a Fox.
__________________
John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood
OkieCruffler is offline  
Old November 17, 2012, 12:39 PM   #15
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
FWIW, any Home/Auto chain store, and most truck/automotive parts store should carry a small can of penetrating oil (very common) - which you can flood around/down the stuck guide rod (with the barrel set held upright in a padded vise/whatever), and let soak for a few days, replenishing the flood as req'd.

If it's STILL "stuck", I'd square off the end of the guide rod with a file as best I could & drill a small hole in the end of it, about a 1/2" deep, to thread for a small screw - which should give enough purchase to pull it out with a pair of visegrip pliers.



.
PetahW is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 03:09 PM   #16
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
I've left the gun sitting in Kroil for 2 weeks. The guide rod is still stuck fast. Also, can't find a replacement guide rod anywhere. Am I stuck with a gun with one working extractor?
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 12:32 PM   #17
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
I think I'd try some heat and cold before I started beating on it with my large collection of hammers.

Have you tried heating it briefly with a soldering iron or very small torch?

How about leaving it in the car trunk one night when the temps fall into the teens?

I'll think about it while I finish raking the leaves. It's a balmy 48*F here.
johnbt is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 06:59 PM   #18
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Good idea!

Digging for my soldering iron right now. If that doesn't work, will ice it down for a while.

Much obliged!
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 07:09 PM   #19
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
FWIW, the guide rod(s) are not sold ANYWHERE, and certainly not separately from the extractor, since they were all welded/soldered/whatever together by the factory during manufacture.

Soooooo, it's either make a dupe, or re-attach the one that broke off - if an entire extractor complete with both guide rods casnnot be located.

Either way, the broken-off rod needs to be removed so whatever you do will have a home.

Or,

Live with a heavy single barrel/shot SxS.


.
PetahW is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 09:01 PM   #20
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Alright... it isn't coming out so got a pin vise and am slooooowly working on hand-drilling out the broken guide rod. Best I can do, I suppose.
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old December 5, 2012, 12:07 PM   #21
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Alrighty, took a drill shank, cut it to size and have epoxy'd it to the extractor for a replacement guide rod. Little stiff but it works in mechanism.

Will take it to the range this weekend. Also going to try out my new Core 15 AR-15. My first AR. So experimental weekend.
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 09:19 AM   #22
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
Congrats - Yesteddy, I kuldnt spel gunschmidt, tday I are one !

At least it appears you've arrived at a workable solution - aka "kitchen table gunsmithing", where many started, a looooong time ago.

When (not "if") the epoxy joint fails, solder or weld the rod in place.


.
PetahW is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 12:40 PM   #23
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
Okay, so... the guide rod works perfectly. However, the gun still doesn't eject. Maybe it wasn't the guide rod after all. Picture is blurry, but... at this point, I'm stumped. Could it be the internal mechanism that determines whether the round has been shot or not? I don't know. Really hate the idea of giving up on this project but I don't know what else it could be.

Question though, wouldn't welding the guide rod to the extractor require the piece be re-annealed and re-hardened? Won't that change the dimensions of the piece enough to be a problem with gun operation? I don't know whether this is mild steel or tool steel. I', hoping it is tool steel but I can't say for sure because it feels a little soft when I touch it with a rasp. I am a trained blacksmith but my abilities with welding usually require taking two pieces of metal, heating them in a forge, fluxing and smashing with a hammer. Not the kind of stuff I can do on a guide rod and extractor. I HAVE an oxy-acetylene set up but, as I said, not good at it. Weld a table together? Sure. Weld 5/64th metal together and expect it to work in a gun? A bit beyond my skill set right now.

Also, have been trying to track down an extractor but Numrich's has none.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20121205_150947.jpg (203.4 KB, 6 views)
Osanagokoro is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 04:32 PM   #24
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
Yes, internal mechanism(s) selectively activate the ejector on fired barrels only/

When the trigger's pulled on a barrel & it's hammer drops, the cocking mechanism for that hammer, in the watertable section of the action, also moves, tripping the "selected" ejector's release latch, so that when the gun's btoken open, any extractor/ejector so tripped will then be released to be driven backward fast/hard by it's own spring.

If one's not tripped, then it will only be cammed back enough to raise the unfired shell out of the chamber enough to be grasped for manual removal (about 3/8").


There could be a worn or broken part anywhere in that chain - but if both barrels fire, ergo they're geting cocked, so that end must be presumed to be ok, and I would look between the cocking rod for that side's hammer and the ejector/extractor.

With the barrel set off the frame, does the ejector move freely back in under manual pressure ?
If not, there may be a horrific bind in there, enough that the EJ spring can't overcome.


.
PetahW is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 05:17 PM   #25
Osanagokoro
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 17
It moves freely. I replaced the spring with a stronger one as well. There is a slight bur on the edge of the extractor but I don't think that is the issue, but I could file that off. However, don't think that would stop the extractor for pushing out.
Osanagokoro is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12079 seconds with 10 queries