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Old November 12, 2012, 07:13 PM   #51
Amsdorf
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Wow, that was a powerful comment and precisely my EDC is equipped with a Crimson Trace sight, I
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:02 AM   #52
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I would have two concerns with using them on a daily carry gun.

1) If the master switch is on, you might have something press the little switch that would drain the battery.

2) In a real emergency, you might not have time to turn the master switch on which would negate the reason for the sight in the first place.
Sometimes the stuff we create in our own heads, while logical, isn't born out by facts. The proper way to carry a CT pistol in a holster, pocket holster, or secured in a vest compartment designed for a gun, is with the switch in the ON position. Same for a home SD gun. The switch in the ON position uses no battery life until the laster is activated when you grip the gun. Also have a set on a SIG P220 that I carry in an IWB. No issues accidentally activating the laser before I grip the pistol. Switch ON.

My spare is an S&W 640 with CT laser grip carried in a pocket holster or vest/coat pocket. Carried it very regularly for a number of years now. Only concern I've had is activating the laser sooner than I want by gripping the pistol too hard. A little practice handles that issue. cool:


I like the laser because the sights on a J-frame aren't the best in dim light. The laser works real well in a stairwell, pkg garage, or most places in doors during daylight hours. My P220 doesn't have night sights. It's an older model with a different front dovetail, and I haven't been able to find a sight for it. The white dot front, and the CT grips make it very versatile.

Last edited by Nnobby45; November 13, 2012 at 01:16 AM.
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:06 PM   #53
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Sometimes the stuff we create in our own heads, while logical, isn't born out by facts.
I just want to point out that Nnobby has won the internetz for today. Brilliant point, worth repeating!

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Old November 13, 2012, 06:38 PM   #54
Amsdorf
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Anytime laser grips come up, I can't understand the folks who start pounding on the table trying to convince everyone they should not be used, they are horrible, they will ruin your gun handling skills.

Most everyone I know who is running their CCW with them is doing so simply to give themselves even more of a chance of survival in a life/death situation.

Yes, iron sights are wonderful and everyone should train, train and train with them.

But...when the real deal happens, God forbid, I'm not going to be worried about anything other than stopping the threat.

Whatever I can use to improve my odds sounds good to me.
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Old November 13, 2012, 07:53 PM   #55
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If you're not in the military or on a swat team, both usually have backup, lasers are fun, great for shooting club competition, but to save your life in the real world under real stress, leave them at home!

Defending yourself, or hunting dangerous game is a skill set thing, and with the most simple, reliable system that is PROVEN ... PERIOD.
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Old November 13, 2012, 08:01 PM   #56
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See what I mean?

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Old November 13, 2012, 08:10 PM   #57
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CT lasergrips; laser-aimers, shooting...

I owned a Taurus snub .357magnum Protector with a CT Lasergrip in 2004.
It worked well but you need to understand the limits & practical uses of laser aiming units.
Even Crimson Trace & the company instructors-cadre advise using the lasers to aid in marksmanship not replace it.
Green laser systems are better than the older red models but do not last as long.

Be aware of the training standards with laser-aimers or white lights & be ready to quickly adapt to NOT having them in a critical incident.
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Old November 13, 2012, 09:01 PM   #58
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Quote:
But...when the real deal happens, God forbid, I'm not going to be worried about anything other than stopping the threat.

Whatever I can use to improve my odds sounds good to me.
You believe that when the real deal happens that wasting time looking for a laser dot that isn't on the target, then randomly waving your firearm around trying to get a laser dot to appear on the target somehow improves your odds?

Have you ever done any Simunitions training against tagets actually moving and "attacking" you (heck, even paintball or those plastic BB's) to compare your performance with a laser against iron sights?
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Old November 13, 2012, 09:45 PM   #59
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See what I mean?
No, I do not "see." I read what you wrote, but beg to differ...

But thank you for asking.
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Old November 14, 2012, 01:02 AM   #60
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Personally, I am notably faster more accurate with the laser. I can aim a gun accurately with a laser without taking a full shooting stance.... shooting from the hip (as is necessary in many self defense situations). I can't do that with iron sights. Of course there is point shooting, but A laser is a heck of a lot more accurate than point shooting.

Quote:
You believe that when the real deal happens that wasting time looking for a laser dot that isn't on the target, then randomly waving your firearm around trying to get a laser dot to appear on the target somehow improves your odds?
45: You probably have a lot of experience with iron sights... sounds like you are a lot better with them than me. I do practice with them a lot more than I do lasers, but I'm far better with the laser. We're all different. However, there is a flaw in your reasoning above. If someone points the gun so poorly that they can't get their laser dot near the target when taking a stance without waving it around, then their front sight probably won't be near the target either, and they will have to wave the gun around in order to find it. I can always find the laser dot and put it on target quicker than I can line my irons up for a six o'clock hold. Seems like the dude who won the day at the league with the LC9 didn't have to wave the gun around much either.
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Old November 14, 2012, 02:27 PM   #61
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I wonder if any of the naysayers for laser sight use have eyesight so bad that with glasses on they can't see the sights and with glasses off they can't make out the target? I recently shot with a retired cop and contractor who specifically has a set of shooting glasses that has his dominant eye lens focused on the sights and his left lens focusing at normal target range. He was shooting without them that day and while he could put the rounds on target he was having difficulty picking up that front sight. It did help that it was the same platform he had carried on-duty for his professional years.
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Old November 14, 2012, 06:18 PM   #62
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I'd say, just off the top of my head, that if your target is so far away you need a laser sight to hit him, you're going to have a helluva time justifying it in court as a self-defense shooting.
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Old November 14, 2012, 06:55 PM   #63
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I bought a Crimson Trace for my wifes LCR, simply because she cant see the sights. She has cataracts, and cant have the surgery for 6 months or so. She was all over the place, shooting without the CT. She now is very accurate WITH the CT. That alone is worth the money for the CT. I have them on my carry guns. I recently was trying to decide on a new handgun purchase, one model had a CT available for it, the other didnt. I bought the gun that had the CT available, and have the grip installed now, even though the other gun held 5 more rounds.

One thing no one has mentioned yet... The CAT loves the Crimson Trace.
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Old November 14, 2012, 09:43 PM   #64
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I'm sure all the pro's have used iron sites before. My question is, have all the con's used lasers before? Doubt it. To dis ANYTHING that would give you advantage in a SD action is limiting your survival far to much. IMHO
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:01 AM   #65
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Shoot this target at 50 feet with your snubbies iron sights, then shoot it with your laser sight.

After you get cocky, super impose your daughter's picture on the Good Guy portion of the target.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...0Target_1_.pdf
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Old November 15, 2012, 01:10 PM   #66
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Guys, there is no convincing the anti-laser crowd, whatever you say will make no difference. In their minds, putting a laser grip on your EDC means you are lazy, incompetent, incapable of using the iron sights, blah, blah, blah.

Never changes.
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Old November 15, 2012, 01:10 PM   #67
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If laser sights work for you and you feel that they give you an advantage, by all means go for it.

Full disclosure: I've never used them.

Lasers definitely have their merits, accurate point shooting being one. My problem lies with the following: at both my LGS (indoor range) as well as the outdoor range just over the mountain, I see TONS of mall ninja/tacticool types. I'm sure you all see the same in some measure wherever you shoot. I've seen a lot of these guys shoot (marginally) well with their lasers, but can't shoot for crap without them. This worries me. Lasers take time to switch on, can fail, and all the other potential problems already mentioned by others. Train with Irons first, then practice with lasers. I really don't think that anybody involved in this discussion falls into this "mall ninja" category. Our TFL users are by and large a careful, thoughtful, responsible bunch. But a large part of the bad taste in my mouth for lasers comes from this group. I hate seeing loudmouths tout their shooting skills when they're sorely lacking fundamentals.

That might be a character flaw of mine- I tend to let large groups of idiots ruin things for me.

I also see a lot of folks who are new shooters sporting laser sights. This one also worries me. Of course I can't fault them for wanting to learn to shoot, but I kind of want to go cover up the laser and say "practice without it first." IMHO, fundamentals (iron sights) should be learned and practiced, then pull out your lasers. I understand that not everyone has time and money to train all the time, so maybe a laser is a good tool for this crowd. But for me, it seems a little bit like buying your first gun and immediately having a trigger job done. Learn fundamentals first.

Again, I highly doubt any of those who have chimed in supporting lasers fall into the "new shooter" group, and could probably outshoot me blindfolded.
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Old November 15, 2012, 02:03 PM   #68
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First post by kraigwy in thread:

Quote:
Laser sights don't REPLACE iron sights, they supplement them. I have the CT sights on my 642. If I can see my sights I use them, in low light where I have difficulty seeing the sights I use my CT Laser Sight.

My LS are activated by squeezing a button on the grip. You don't have to turn on or off a switch.

The best advantaged I've found in using the CT is in dry firing. When you dry fire using the LS you get instant feed back as to what is happening on the target.

Again I think they are a valuable "supplement" to my iron sights, but not a replacement for them.
...

...mirrors my opinion on LS's.

Very useful tool/aid for a SD pistol but not a replacement for iron sights or practicing with irons. The LS's on my SD pistols are 'grip' button activated as well. Don't think I'd put a LS on my pistol that had just a 'constant' on/off switch.

Last edited by shortwave; November 15, 2012 at 02:11 PM.
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Old November 15, 2012, 03:16 PM   #69
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Old November 15, 2012, 03:35 PM   #70
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Amsdorf, I have experience with laser sights. That said, some of the people to whom you are showing some attitude make points similar to the ones I'd make, even if they don't have experience with them.

People are capable of studying things they don't necessarily have, you realize.

For instance, before I bought my motorcycles, I knew all about them through research (Cycle World, Consumer Reports, google searches). Same goes for my cars and trucks (add kbb.com and edmunds.com to the mix). It is quite possible to make reasonably informed decisions without "hands-on," at least with regard to quantifiable characteristics such as average maintenance costs, braking from 60mph, etc.

My personal take on lasers (I've had them on an SP101, a 442, and a PM9) is that they have some practical applications in SD for the average shooter; they are potentially very useful for shooters with failing eyesight; and they are good training aids.

I get on target faster using the iron sights; even if shooting from a retention position, the laser is only as fast as I can adjust my point, and to be honest with you, if somebody is so close that I don't dare to get a flash sight picture, I'm probably going to be too focused on moving and doing other things to actually acquire the dot before pulling the trigger.

I've seen a lot of shooters who don't use the laser for something which suits it very well indeed - dry fire. I learned to shoot J-frame DA in large part from laser dry-fire practice. I could tell those other shooters I mentioned didn't dry fire much, because their trigger control and sight alignment were horrible. The bullet only strikes the intended point of impact (dot), if the gun isn't allowed to move off target through the trigger stroke.

Spend enough time at a range, and you'll see little red (and sometimes green) dots dancing all over the targets and back walls (on occasion, the ceilings and side walls, too - that's an attention getter). You'll also see very steady dots, but in my experience those are not nearly as common as the dancing dots.

For shooters who accept that the laser is not a magical device, and does not work indepedently of good shooting fundamentals, the laser can be very helpful.

Pros:
Allows the user to cover a target while keeping a broader active scan;
Allows the user to aim from off positions, or behind irregular cover;
Helps shooters with poor near (sights) or distant (target) vision avoid the need to focus on two separate planes;
Is relatively easy to acquire in low light;
Makes a great dry-fire training aid.

Cons:
Does not help ID a target in lower light conditions (not a replacement for a light);
Does not guarantee a hit where the dot starts out (the shooter has to do his part);
Can inspire false confidence in new shooters;
Can give away user's presence and position;
May cause less experienced shooters to ignore iron sights skills;
Relies on battery or batteries.

Yes, I know, many things rely on batteries. For instance, my Bose A20 noise cancelling pilot's headset. When those die at inopportune times, I suddenly hear airplane engines, which is annoying. I then swap out the batteries (I carry spares in my headset case).

In a self-defense use, I doubt I'd have time to change a laser's battery - assuming I had a spare handy, which is extremely doubtful.

I've had batteries go bad on motorcycles and cars.

My watches have been known to sometimes stop; so have my cell phones.

A lot of people pooh-pooh concerns about batteries, and they have a point - most of the time, this won't be an issue, assuming a regular preventive maintenance / upkeep cycle is followed. Most of the time isn't always, though, and I have seen a lot of shooters who fall prey to the error of ignoring basics because their laser is "superior."

So, the laser is a potentially useful tool, but only if the user recognizes its (and his own) limitations.
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Old November 15, 2012, 03:55 PM   #71
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Batteries go south, no doubt. Smoke detectors don't go off much but the battery still drains, we just don't know it until its too late.

So somebody came up with the ideal of changing smoke detector batteries when they change their clocks, twice a year whether they need it or not.

Same thing with batteries in laser sights, they last a long time, much more then a year the way I use them...........BUT........ I change my CT LS batteries when I change my smoke detector batteries, and when I change my clocks...that being twice a year.

I change the batteries in my ear protectors every time I go to a major match, I've had them fail, I can't hear the timer without my electronic ear protectors.

Same thing with car batteries. You don't head into a winter season with poor batteries in your car or truck.

Batteries fail, I know this more then most considering how much time I spent in the Arctic in sub-zero temps.

But I hope I'm smarter then a battery. You can prepare for possible failures with LS batteries just like anything else.

Its not the Laser Sight's fault its ours.
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Old November 15, 2012, 04:21 PM   #72
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kraigwy, like I said, a preventive maintenance cycle should be employed.

Things still fail. Sometimes due to user error (leaving interior lights on in the car, for example); sometimes due to trauma of which we are unaware (example, wire comes loose or shorts in car, so battery drains without our knowing it); sometimes due to simple entropy (I've had a couple batteries just suddenly go bad, well within their projected life cycle).

Also, having owned two sets of Crimson Trace grips and one CT LaserGuard, the battery lives between the three did not seem the same. It may take some time to figure out the appropriate battery change interval.

As far as your 50 ft target suggestion, I'd like to point out that whether the laser is the better choice will depend largely on where you have the laser sighted. Depending on the type of laser you mount, parallax can be a real issue.

At the range you've zeroed, it should be fantastic. At other ranges, some odd Kentucky windage may come into play.

I typically zeroed mine for 20 yards, figuring the parallax at any reasonable distance would be within an inch. I've seen a lot of people zero at ranges from 5-7 yards; for those, your 50ft drill would be pretty unsettling.
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:24 PM   #73
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I literally just put some CT grips onto my 1911.

Regarding the concern of giving away your position with the laser, I've found that (at least with this model) if you slightly loosen the grip of your finger over the activate button, the laser will not come on.
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:47 PM   #74
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I put a Crimson Trace on my S&W 640 a few years back. I like it and I like that it tells you when its time to change the batteries. When the batteries are running down the laser will start out bright and then slowly fade. Once my Gun starts doing this I change out the batteries even though I could probably get another 6 months from them.
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Old November 16, 2012, 09:32 AM   #75
45_auto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ffr0
I can always find the laser dot and put it on target quicker than I can line my irons up for a six o'clock hold.
Then you must be an EXTREMELY skilled point shooter. Have you ever had any formal training such as Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc?

Do you participate in any type of pistol competitions to evaluate your skill level?

My guess is that neither of the above applies to you, and you have no formal measurement on how your use of laser sights compares to the skilled use of iron sights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ffr0
Seems like the dude who won the day at the league with the LC9 didn't have to wave the gun around much either.
It would be interesting to see how he did in previous league competitions. Usually there are one or two highly skilled competitors who dominate no matter what kind of equipment they use. It wouldn't surprise me if he would have won it no matter what he used, and he might have been faster without it. Hard to believe that there was only one person there with a laser. How did all the rest of the lasers do?

There's nothing wrong with lasers, I have them on several guns. If the situation develops slowly enough that you have time to think about how you're going to solve it and the laser is the answer, they work great.

If someone is charging you from a couple of car lengths away in the Wal-mart parking lot and you're looking around at all the angled surfaces of the parked cars for your laser dot, you're in trouble. If you train looking for the dot sometimes and the sights sometimes and you believe that in a panic situation you're going to make the right decision, you're in trouble. Of course, if your point shooting skills are such that the laser is always on target, it's really irrelevent what you use.

Last edited by 45_auto; November 16, 2012 at 09:42 AM.
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