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Old November 14, 2012, 04:52 PM   #26
Bart B.
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Well, if I can get a shorter bolt throw and a stiffer action with the 308, then I would lean toward it.
Note that a long action Win. 70 with a short stopped bolt throw for .308 ammo is stiffer than a short or long Rem 700 action.
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Old November 14, 2012, 05:01 PM   #27
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Attached is a Millett 6-20 X 50 TRS scope with an iluminated retical.

............?........... Millett does not make a TRS in the 6-20x50 flavor. The TRS-1 is 4-16x50, and the TRS-2 is a fixed 10x. They also make the LRS which is a 6-24x56.....
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Old November 14, 2012, 05:01 PM   #28
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PatientWolf, You spec out a 308 last month on a build are you changing your mind?
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Old November 14, 2012, 05:21 PM   #29
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Load the 06 to the same pressure you are seeing in the .308 and watch is very quickly walk away from the .308.
the reason manufactured ammo is loaded to such a low pressure number is so it won't blow up a garand. Modern 06 rifles will no doubt handle the same chamber pressure as its same model of rifle in .308, and make the .308 seem meager in comparison.

-scott
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Old November 14, 2012, 08:46 PM   #30
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I haven't really changes my mind I just haven't done anything about it yet. I may go the used rout to keep cost down and wanted people's opinions on the question posed since I seem to see a lot more 30-06 on the market than .308. Based on all the responses, I think .308 is still the right cartridge for me. Maybe I'll find the right rifle at the gun show in town this weekend.
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Old November 15, 2012, 08:36 AM   #31
Bart B.
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Scotts 4x comments:
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Load the 06 to the same pressure you are seeing in the .308 and watch is very quickly walk away from the .308.

the reason manufactured ammo is loaded to such a low pressure number is so it won't blow up a garand.

Modern 06 rifles will no doubt handle the same chamber pressure as its same model of rifle in .308, and make the .308 seem meager in comparison.
I think you need to recheck your information sources. What you've stated disagrees with what I've observed and found out; especially the manufactured ammo being low pressure to be safe in Garands. Military 7.62 and commercial .308 Win. ammo used in Garands was never loaded to low pressures. In fact, it had higher peak pressures than .30-06 ammo.

Note also that Garand barrels were proof tested with the same peak pressure .30-06 loads as commercial factory sporting rifles.

Last edited by Bart B.; November 15, 2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old November 15, 2012, 06:56 PM   #32
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In my years of handloading,39 years to be exact,the 30-06 will leave the 308 Winchester in the dust,when both are loaded to their full potential.

For example,in my 3rd edition Hornady reloading manual,using the #3031 150 grain Spire Point,in both the 30-06 and 308,the maximum velocity listed is 3100fps in the 30-06,and 2800fps in the 308,and this has been my experience of approximately 150 to 300fps difference between the two on my chronograph.

Now,using the #3070 180 grain Spire Point,maximum listed velocity is 2800fps in the 30-06,and 2500fps in the 308.

Now when both are loaded to standard military specs,they're pretty much equal,however,the 308 is close to max,where as the 30-06 is downloaded.

Over the years,I have thinned down my collection of rifles chambered in 308 Winchester,matter of fact,I no longer own rifles chambered in 308,because I can download the 30-06 to match the ballistics of the 308,but I couldn't load the 308 to match the ballistics of the 30-06.

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Old November 15, 2012, 07:29 PM   #33
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Note that a long action Win. 70 with a short stopped bolt throw for .308 ammo is stiffer than a short or long Rem 700 action.
I wasn't aware of this. Are you speaking of all model 70's?
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Old November 15, 2012, 09:05 PM   #34
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If I wanted to shoot over 200 gr I would pick something else other than the thirty ought tumbler. Ought six has been around forever and there r better calibers out there that r faster and flatter than old ought. The only advantage to the ought is u can pick up a box of ammo almost anywhere. Look into the 7 mag
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Old November 15, 2012, 09:13 PM   #35
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JRI
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For example,in my 3rd edition Hornady reloading manual,using the #3031 150 grain Spire Point,in both the 30-06 and 308,the maximum velocity listed is 3100fps in the 30-06,and 2800fps in the 308,and this has been my experience of approximately 150 to 300fps difference between the two on my chronograph.
Your 30-06 barrel might have smaller bore and groove diameters. Who knows what peak pressure each had. A bad comparison. And Hornady's data is also skewed for the same reasons.

Nobody shooting their own factory sporters can get a realistic comparison between these two (nor any other two) rounds unless their ammo is loaded to and barrels's chambers and bores are at SAAMI specs, peak pressure's at SAAMI specs and the barrels are mounted in a fixed receiver. If using SAAMI spec ammo and barrels, then you're comparing just the two cartridges. When two different chamber, bore and groove dimensions are used as well as not verifying they produce SAAMI pressure specs, you're comparing too many dissimilar things at the same time and the data will be skewed. To say nothing of the muzzle velocity errors caused by humans holding the rifles.

SAAMI data for 150's from a .308 Win. at 62,000 PSI says 2800 fps and the .30-06 with a 150 at 60,000 PSI says 2900 fps. Both used the same batch of 150-gr. bullets. SAAMI spec pressure and velocity barrels for both are 24 inches long and have .3000" bore and .3080" groove diameters. Barrels are mounted in a Universal receiver hard mounted on a bench; it don't recoil at all. So based on each cartridge's design specs and compared in identical systems, the .30-06 shoots 150's a hundred fps faster than the .308 Win.

Last edited by Bart B.; November 15, 2012 at 09:55 PM.
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:21 PM   #36
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Well Bart,thanks for the input,however,my chono,says 3092fps for a 10 shot string average for my load in my 30-06,150 grain spire point,#3031,cases have been reloaded 11 times thus far with this load,so, much better than what I ever received out of a 308.

Btw,this is with a 24" barrel.
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:23 PM   #37
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JRI, 'twould be interesting to see what the peak pressure is for that 3096 fps 150. I've got that velocity with 155's in one my .308's with a 32 inch barrel using a known safe, normal max pressure load in a tight groove and bore dimension barrel.

I've shot 168's's from .308 Win. cases out the muzzle of a 24 inch barrel at 2900 plus fps; the barrel's bore and groove was only .0001" tighter than SAAMI spec. That's from a high pressure proof test round producing 65,000 CUP (81,000 PSI). With normal SAAMI peak pressures and barrels, it leaves about 2670 fps. Therefore, I think your 3096 fps 150 from a .30-06 case and 24 inch barrel's close to proof loads for it.
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Old November 16, 2012, 12:39 AM   #38
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" Therefore, I think your 3096 fps 150 from a .30-06 case and 24 inch barrel's close to proof loads for it."

Just guessing, based on my own results through the years, but odds are that the load is likely around 55,000 psi--about the same as the .308.
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Old November 16, 2012, 07:38 AM   #39
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Therefore, I think your 3096 fps 150 from a .30-06 case and 24 inch barrel's close to proof loads for it
Nope,sorry Bart,the 3092 fps 150 grain load is 1.7 grains below maximum charge,according to the load manual,pressure is 57,200 psi at maximum charge,so obviously my 3092 fps load is slightly under 57,200 psi.

You mentioned you achieved similar velocity in your 308 with 155 grain and a 32 inch barrel,now,take my 3092 fps 30-06 load,and shoot it out of a 32 inch barrel,and it will STILL smoke the 308 Win.

As they say in the racing circles,"there is no substitute for displacement",the same pretty much holds true here. The 308 does not have the case capacity the 30-06 has.
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Old November 16, 2012, 08:00 AM   #40
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I've owned my .308 since 1971 and its taken game from moose to mule deer. Very accurate and plenty of power. In contrast, I owned a 30-06 briefly and found the excessive recoil too much for me and sold it. I'm no fan of recoil.

I can load 200 grain Speer bullets in my .308 but velocity suffers. But I discovered that Nosler Partition 180's shoot flatter and penetrate deeply. So these Premium 180's are my favorite for truley big animals.

The hunter with a 30-06 rifle can shoot heavy 220 grain bullets. This may be considered an advantage by some. But I'm not convinced I'll ever need to shoot 220 grain bullets.

30-06 has been proven as a reliable big game cartridge wherever game is hunted. It's been around for over 100 years.

.308 has been proven as a reliable big game cartridge wherever game is hunted. It's been around for over 50 years.

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Old November 16, 2012, 08:33 AM   #41
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JRI states:
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Nope,sorry Bart,the 3092 fps 150 grain load is 1.7 grains below maximum charge,according to the load manual,pressure is 57,200 psi at maximum charge,so obviously my 3092 fps load is slightly under 57,200 psi.
While the peak pressure may have been that high with that load in the barrel Hornady used, it is not obvious your barrel will have the same peak pressure. You're assuming (guessing?) it was. Several things in your shooting system were different that Hornady's. Case dimensions and neck tension. Bore and chamber dimensions. Powder and primer lot numbers. Firing pin impact.

What powder and primer did you use? And was the same powder used in both the .30-06 and .308?

Exactly what do you mean by:
Quote:
Now when both are loaded to standard military specs,they're pretty much equal,however,the 308 is close to max,where as the 30-06 is downloaded.
In what way is the .30-06 downloaded?

What's the military spec difference between a .30-06 and a 7.62 NATO round, peak pressure wise?
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Old November 16, 2012, 09:30 AM   #42
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I ran a couple loads through QuickLoad to get it's prediction. SAAMI dimensions and 24" barrel. OAL max or .308 seating depth, as appropriate.

With a 150gr Hornady SP,

Max velocity powder, RL-17
.30-06-60.6gr 3,109fps
.308Win-52.4gr, 3,029fps

With 110gr Hornady SP, Win748
.30-06, 59.3, 3,481 (max speed IMR30301 3,496)
.308Win, 52.2, 3,430fps

With 180gr Hornady SP, RL-17
.30-06-51.8gr 2790fps (Max Ramshot Hunter, 55.5gr, 2,798)
.308-47.7gr 2,752fp (max W76049.6gr 2,753fps)


Short version: There's not much difference.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; November 16, 2012 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Added Caution
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Old November 16, 2012, 10:16 AM   #43
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Back before CUP, psi was the deal. The factory loads for the '06 were published as being around 49,000 psi. When the .308 first came on the market, factory loads were published as being 55,000 psi.

Just guessing, but I've always figured that the lower pressure for the '06 had to do with all the old Springfields that were "out there". The GI loads were around 47,000 or 49,000, I disremember.

So, you load an '06 to 55,000 and you'll outrun a .308. Not enough for Bambi to notice, though.
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Old November 16, 2012, 11:04 AM   #44
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Using Brians numbers for a 150 gr bullet the 308 gives up about 2.5% velocity but uses about 14% less powder and has about 12% less recoil. If you also factor in that with modern bullets there is simply no need for the heavier bullets that used to be a advantage in 30-06. A 150 gr, even 130 gr premium bullet from a 308 will kill anything on this continent.

I've hunted with a 30-06 since the 70's, have several that aren't for sale. But my 308 is 2 lbs lighter, shoots just as well and goes hunting a lot more often now. I cannot imagine any animal ever knowing the difference.
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Old November 16, 2012, 11:53 AM   #45
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Brian, thanks for a decent comparison using QuickLoad. While it's based on known component behavior and predictions on results, it's a lot better than two barrels with unknown internal dimensions and other unknown variables.

Here's more reasonable comparisons between these two cartridges:

MIL-SPEC data for the 7.62 NATO M80 round, 22 inch test barrel:
WC846 powder, 146 grain bullet, 2750 fps at 78 feet
peak pressure 50,000 CUP

SAAMI spec for the .308 Win. round, 24 inch test barrel:
150 grain bullet, 2800 fps at 12.5 feet
peak pressure 52,000 CUP

MIL-SPEC data for the 30 caliber M2 round, 24 inch test barrel:
4895 powder, 150 grain bullet with 2740 fps at 78 feet,
peak pressure 50,000 CUP

SAAMI spec for the .30-06, round, 24 inch test barrel:
150 grain bullet, 2900 fps at 12.5 feet
peak pressure 50,000 CUP

MIL-SPEC data for the 30 caliber M72 round, 24 inch test barrel:
4895 powder, 172 grain bullet with 2640 fps at 78 feet, 24 inch test barrel
peak pressure 50,000 CUP

MIL-SPEC data for the 7.62 NATO M118 round, 22 inch test barrel:
4895 powder, 172 grain bullet with 2640 fps at 78 feet
peak pressure 50,000 CUP

SAAMI spec for the .30-06, round, 24 inch test barrel:
168 grain bullet, 2790 fps at 12.5 feet
peak pressure 50,000 CUP

SAAMI spec for the .308 Win. round, 24 inch test barrel:
168 grain bullet, 2670 fps at 12.5 feet
peak pressure 52,000 CUP

Please, fellas (Art Eatman?), do not get the older copper units of pressure (CUP) confused with the modern piezo transducer strain gauges measuring actual pressure in pounds per square inch (PSI). Shame, shame on both the military and commercial folks using PSI for their pressure numbers when they measured those little primer-size crushed copper pellets' thickness from the piston in the pressure test barrel crushing them, then compared the measurement to a tarage table supplied with each lot. They're not the same actual pressure except in about 30,000 units of each. For these two cartridges, the actual pressure in pounds per square inch is a few to several thousand more than the CUP numbers listed. For example, in the SAAMI loads above at 52,000 CUP for the .308 Win., the strain gauge numbers are 62,000 PSI for peak pressure.

Study the pressure measuring information in the following SAAMI document for both the .30-06 and .308 Win. rounds as well as how each is done:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf

Last edited by Bart B.; November 16, 2012 at 05:19 PM.
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Old November 16, 2012, 01:35 PM   #46
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I have a pair matching Remington 700s.One in 308 the other in 30-06.Killed Georgia whitetails with both and they seem identicle in hunting performance out to 250 yards for me.I can tell a difference in recoil though.30-06 does hit harder.The 308 is my "go to" deer rifle.
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Old November 16, 2012, 02:44 PM   #47
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I was surprised to see that the trend in the QuickLoad predictions was that the .308 was actually getting CLOSER to the .30-06 as the bullets got heavier so I went ahead and also ran the numbers for Hornady 220gr RN:


.308- Best noncompressed load, RL17, 44.9, 2,492fps, 108% compressed load, Ramshot Hunter 47.9gr, 2,498fps
.30-06- Best noncompressed load, Ramshot HUnter 56.9gr, 2,585fps, 108% compressed load, N560, 60.0gr, 2,654fps

Even here, where we've heard that the .30-06 "walks away" from the .308, we have only 150fps difference and only 93fps without going compressed. Any given difference between two guns/barrels/chambers could make up for that difference.
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Old November 16, 2012, 11:55 PM   #48
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Bart B, I'm not confusing anything (I hope). I'm citing figures from back before CUP came into use in talking about pressures. Data in later loading data books, and other writings, talk about CUP. But factory data in the 1950s and 1960s used psi.

I dunno. Way back when, in my metallurgy classes and some other courses, we measured psi via strain gauges.
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Old November 17, 2012, 08:30 AM   #49
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Art, chamber pressure was measured using copper (or lead) units of pressure decades before piezo or strain types of electric gauges were used starting in about 1970. Electric gauges were used in other industries beginning in the 1950's but rarely then in ammo testing. Factory and military specs were still based on copper units for sometime after 1970 'cause that's the system they used, trusted and already had plus it worked very well for all safety issues. But the vast majority of them stated the numbers in print as "psi" value when in fact it was copper (lead) units of pressure or CUP (LUP). When comparing numbers of both system, such as between the commercial .308 Win. using electric systems stating 62,000 psi or copper crusher systems stating 52,000 with both cup and psi suffixes compared to the military 7.62 NATO crusher system stating 50,000 psi, the confusion and mistakes began. They still exist 'cause so many folks don't communicate nor understand the realities of each.
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Old November 17, 2012, 09:39 AM   #50
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Bart,my results were with 6 different rifles,3 in 308 Win,and 3 in 30-06,never once could I match the velocity of the 30-06 load with the 308 Win,I ran into pressure problems before I could reach 2900fps with the 150 grain bullet in the 308.

I was using IMR 4320,IMR 4064 and W760,CCI 200 primers,even tried Winchester LR primers in both the 308 and 30-06,the 06 always posted considerably higher velocities than did the 308,and that was with the 6 rifles,so I don't know.

So for me,I'm sticking with the 30-06,as it always has worked well for me.I got rid of all the 308 Win rifles I owned.
I appreciate your input as well as others' input on the subject.
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