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Old October 28, 2012, 05:51 PM   #1
Brian Pfleuger
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Project Savage 11 243AI is FINISHED! (For Now.)

Woot Woot!

She's done!

I started this project with a nearly new Savage 11 chambered in 270WSM. I decided a rebarrel was in order and began researching where I'd get it and what cartridge it should be.

The cartridge choice was easy. After a little research, I decided that 243Win was everything I needed and more but 243AI offers another 150-200fps and really has no downside, being that I load my own ammo. So that choice was made.

At first, I was headed toward a gun that would have been GREAT for varmint and benchrest work but a compromise on deer hunting. I was going to go with a 28" barrel, heavy contour and a heavy Choate target stock. After some more pondering, I realized that what I really wanted was a fantastic deer gun that was a compromise for target and varmint use. I knew that all my choices (except the 243AI) were wrong for that application.

After researching extensively about every barrel option I could find and PMing quite a few members here (Special thanks to Scorch!), I decided to go with a barrel from McGowen. I chose 24", stainless steel, 6 flutes in the Shilen #2 profile and 11dg target crown. McGowen originally told me 8-10 weeks but it ended up being just a bit over 7 weeks. The finished barrel comes in at about 3 1/2 pounds, keeping the gun very close to it's original weight, and it looks fantastic.

I've had to make a few short-term compromises (since none of you guys want to buy any of the stuff I've been trying to sell) so the gun currently wears it's original Savage stock and a Nikon 3-9x BDC scope. Net year, it'll be finished off with a nicer stock and a Sightron SII Big Sky scope with a bit more magnification.

I've got to say, I'm surprised by how much I learned doing this project. It was quite the process.

1)Savage bolt heads are swappable and come in appropriate sizes for about every cartridge that's ever been made, which is good. What's not so good is that there are so many choices and so little information listed on most sites that it was tough to figure out which model I needed exactly. The size (.308 standard) is obvious, but there are different lengths of various heads and I wasn't sure which portion of the head was different. As it turns out, it's the thickness of the head itself that varies, so with the Savages unique headspacing system it doesn't matter which one you get, except...

2)As it turns out (it's obvious if you think about it), if you get a bolt head that's a different length, you end up with a firing pin that's either too long or too short. These are adjustable too and once you know how it's pretty easy but I never thought of it before.

3)Savage recoil lugs are notorious for not being flat, which adversely affects accuracy as it applies uneven force on the action when you tighten the barrel nut. Interestingly, it seems that I'm the only person who's ever tried to do a conversion on a large shank Savage rifle and wanted to replace the recoil lug. Large shank aftermarket lugs are like finding Unicorn teeth or something. Anyway, I ended up carefully measuring mine and realize that what I initially thought was up to .006 variance from top to bottom was actually just because some of it is blued (the part that doesn't touch the action) and some isn't (the part that does). Once I measured just the part that does touch, I found that I had one small burr that was .001 more than the rest of the lug. Once I ground that off, I had a very nice, flat, consistent lug.

4)I had a good time trying to find the Go and No-Go gauges for 243AI. I wanted to buy them but they're all backordered for months. As it turns out, the "No-Go" gauge for a 243AI is the same as a 243/308 Go Gauge and, as it turns out (Thanks again Scorch!), you can rent these things for like $8 from 4-D Reamers. While I was at it, I also rented a Savage barrel wrench.

5)People sure make a big deal about getting the barrel off these Savage rifles. I was almost convinced that I'd need an army of horses to get it off but I was also reading some stories about needing no more than a pipe wrench and barrel wrench. I decided to go that route and see how bad it was. I taped up the action, recoil lug, barrel and giant crescent wrench with blue painters tape, set the gun with crescent wrench attached to the recoil lug on the floor, slid the barrel wrench onto the nut and stepped on it. It came loose no problem.

6)The Savage bolt head parts are all interchangeable. This isn't information I could really find listed anywhere easy but I did finally run across it somewhere. So, the extractor and ejector can just be swapped from one head to the other. Getting the whole bolt and head apart is pretty easy and there's plenty of YouTube video and what-not to help.

7)The magazine... it's internal and the new ones are stupidly expensive. Obviously, the 270WSM case is a different size than the .243 case. I also read things about "Center-Feed" and "Push-Feed" and couldn't figure out what the difference is or why. But I do know that the 270WSM is Center Feed while the 243 is Push Feed. I'll save anyone else the research and just tell you that swapping out the bolt head fixes the issue and you're good, so there's really nothing that needs to be done extra. As far as the magazine, I simply measured the clearances around the 270WSM case and then bent the feed lips to match those clearances with a 243 case. Worked like a charm.


So, barrel off the gun, bolt assembled with extractor and ejector removed, action vertical, bolt closed in action, Go-Gauge set on top of bolt head. Screw barrel in until it stops solid against the Go-gauge. Tighten barrel nut just enough to hold it still. Open action. Remove Go-Gauge. Put No-Go in it's place. Attempt to close bolt. It shouldn't close (and didn't). Tighten barrel nut again, which I did the same way I loosened it, and retry both gauges. Close on Go-Gauge, no close on No-Go gauge. 10-4, presto, usable gun.

So, I loaded up 5 "Verify It Don't Blow Up" rounds using 55gr bullets and 90% charges of Trail Boss (Love this powder!). This load should be generating 30,000 psi and 2,300 fps. I must admit, I fired the first round one-handed with my head turned. Fortunately, it was entirely uneventful and the remaining 4 were fired like a normal, sane person.

I might have left something out but this is approaching novel length now, so if anyone is still reading at this point and wonders about something, please do ask.

And... the requisite pictures....







Note in this picture, standard 243Win on the left, fireformed 243AI on the right. The case shoulder/neck junction is not perfectly formed as this load does not generate enough pressure to get the job done completely.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; October 28, 2012 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Added crown picture
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Old October 28, 2012, 06:53 PM   #2
taylorce1
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Nice! Now get out there and reload with some RL22, Retumbo, or H1000 with 105 A-Max bullets and see what you can do. RL22 is delivering 3135 fps out of my standard .243 with 26" barrel. Your barrel will heat up on you pretty quick being a #2, but you should be able to get off three shots pretty easily. The A-Max will be a coyote or chuck's worst enemy, and run 90 grain NAB or 95 NBT for deer.

Look up Stockade Gunstocks for a super saver stock, although I'm not sure it will save you a whole lot of time waiting on it. You might want to look into his bolt lift kit as well, really cheap and it makes a difference in bolt lift. I like the 3/8" knurled tactical bolt handle as well, puts it out there and makes it easier to grab without being obnoxiously large.
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Old October 28, 2012, 07:24 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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RL22, eh? I'll keep that in mind.

I'm going to do the rest of my fireforming with 243Win max loads of IMR-3031 since I have a bottle that proved unsatisfactory for it's intended purpose.

After that, I have a bottle of RL17 and RL19 that I'll try. Right now I'm starting with 55gr Nosler Lead-Free bullets for chucks and 80gr Barnes TTSX for deer.

My uncles Browning X-bolt with 24" barrel launches the 55gr Nosler at 3,997fps with RL-19 and QuickLoad thinks I can get about 4,150 with mine.

I haven't worked up a load with the Barnes bullets yet but we should be able to reach 3,600 anyway.

BTW, QuickLoad agrees with your choice of RL22, at least in terms of max-speed. It thinks a 107% compressed load would get me 3,624fps, second fastest only to N560 at 3,640.

Thanks for the suggestions on the stock and bolt hardware. I'll definitely be giving that a look.

The Firing Line community never ceases to amaze me. Even when I didn't see what I was looking for readily, a Google search almost always brought me back here for the information. You guys rock!
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Old October 28, 2012, 07:49 PM   #4
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outstanding! how many hours has it taken so far? Are you planning on trigger work and bedding etc?
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:10 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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That actual work is probably no more than an hour. It literally takes under 10 minutes to remove and install the barrel. It doesn't take 10 minutes to disassemble the bolt and put it back together, with maybe another 10 to adjust the firing pin.

The research time has been many, many hours. It took several phone calls just to figure out the recoil lug issues. I probably spent 10 hours reading and asking about barrels.

I've never been interested in doing bedding work. I'll buy a nice stock for it but don't plan to get one that requires extra work.

I may get a trigger eventually. There might even be lighter springs I can install. Honestly though, there's no creep or over-travel to speak of and it's adjustable down to about 3 1/2 pounds, which is where I have it. That's pretty good for a deer rifle.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:17 PM   #6
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Reloder 22 is a great powder for the .243, and I bet that it would be perfectly suitable for the .243AI. I use 100 grain bullets in mine and get 3100 fps with those bullets. I've only shot one deer with it so far and it wasn't a bang-flop, but he wandered off about 50 yards and started blowing pink foam out his nose. I'm perfectly happy with that performance.

The stagger feed vs center feed is a perfectly understandable confusion. Savage changed the design of the bottom metal a couple of years ago and changed the magazine design, along with the action bolt spacing. It's easy to see when you know the difference, but I can see that it would be confusing to someone not familiar with the rifle. They're all push feed, but the newer magazines are center feed, the older ones are stagger feed. Of our Savages (seven in the family), three are center feed, four are stagger feed.

What's the twist of that barrel? I've got the standard 9.25 twist on my .243 and at 100 yards I'm starting to see keyholing on the 105 A-Max. Bad keyholing on the 107 Sierra MK. So, I've stayed down at 100 grains for now. When I rebarrel, I'm going with a 7 or 8 twist to see if I can use those lovely, long bullets.

But, nice rifle. I'm sure you'll be happy with it. And yes, Reloder 22 is an excellent powder for that caliber.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:36 PM   #7
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I had 243AI build 2007 on Rem 700 action with 27" long Hart 1/10 twist barrel wanted it for antelope been kind of safe queen. Powder I was interested in using was IMR-4007ssc ran it in a 30-06 was pretty good.

Hodgdon manual had max load of 45gr/IMR-4007ssc,80gr Sierra @ 3319fps. I worked up to that max load used a Rem Core-Lokt HP 80gr @ 3425fps worked up to 47gr @ 3654fps. I shot few 87gr Hornady and Nolser BT 95gr (shot those in a 6RemAI) and I never chronograph any of those loads.

I've never had much luck with R-19 or 22 but have had pretty good luck with R-17 and I need to try that in the 243AI. that rifle is one of my project for this coming year.

Sound like you had had fun putting that rifle together. Well good luck
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Old October 28, 2012, 09:05 PM   #8
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so what's the process of installing the new barrel? Do you just screw it in or do you need to use plumbers tape or anything to secure it?

also how do you know how far back to screw the barrel in? Is that what the go/no-go guages are for or is there another tool?
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Old October 28, 2012, 09:08 PM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
What's the twist of that barrel? I've got the standard 9.25 twist on my .243 and at 100 yards I'm starting to see keyholing on the 105 A-Max. Bad keyholing on the 107 Sierra MK. So, I've stayed down at 100 grains for now. When I rebarrel, I'm going with a 7 or 8 twist to see if I can use those lovely, long bullets.
Sadly, I was going back and forth and now I can't remember. I think I went with 9 but it might be 9.5, I'll have to check the order form again. The 85gr TSX is about the same length as typical 105gr bullets and calculators indicate that it should stabilize fine. Here's hoping. Barnes load data indicates that they use a 10 twist for their bullets. When I emailed them to inquire, they were adamant that 10 would stabilize their 85gr bullets. I've always been a fan of light, fast bullets so as long as I can get away with the 80gr TTSX I doubt I'll ever go heavier.

I have noticed that my propensity for light for caliber bullets sometimes creates a bit of a catch-22 when dealing with over-bore cartridges. The slow powders that would normally be optimum for over-bore conditions are too slow to keep up with light bullets but faster powders tend to be too fast to get good case fill. There's usually a few that work but sometimes the options are limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Roper
Sound like you had fun putting that rifle together. Well good luck
It has been fun and educational. Hopefully, I'll be out your way with it for an elk hunt one of these years.
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Old October 29, 2012, 06:40 PM   #10
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Nice barrel. Let us know how she shoots...

I love the ballistics of the .243... I either shoot too much, or don't make enough dough (or both!)to deal with the barrel life () so I went with 7-08...
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Old October 30, 2012, 02:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobnpr
Nice barrel. Let us know how she shoots...

I love the ballistics of the .243... I either shoot too much, or don't make enough dough (or both!)to deal with the barrel life () so I went with 7-08...
Right now I'm long on want and short on time. I've been able to load 11 fireforming rounds. The first of them were Trail Boss and the next 6 were the lowest max charge of IMR3031 I could find. 3031 scares me a bit, since I'm loading with no real data and it proved hotter than QuickLoad expected in 7mm-08.

I must still be at relatively low pressure as only 1 or 2 of those rounds seemed fully formed. I'm going to step it up to the next lowest max charge and that should do it, I would think.

I may also just change over to my expected final combination of 80gr Barnes TTSX and RL19(or 17). I'll need to work them up eventually anyway. Might as well fireform with them.

The AI is supposed to have somewhat better barrel life than the Win version but I'm not sure it will matter for me. Even if I get 1,500 rounds of acceptable accuracy I will probably be looking at 8-10 years of shooting. The more likely scenario, I should think, would be 3-5,000 rounds, especially since I don't "require" 1/4 MOA accuracy. If that's the case, this barrel will probably outlast me.
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Old October 30, 2012, 08:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
I must still be at relatively low pressure as only 1 or 2 of those rounds seemed fully formed. I'm going to step it up to the next lowest max charge and that should do it, I would think.
I had problems with fire forming a .280 GNR one time, which is a .405 Win necked down to 7mm with 40 degree shoulder. I called Garry Reeder who markets the cartridge, he told me to properly fireform the brass in needed to jam the bullet into the lands to help increase pressure to move the shoulders forward. My problem was I was loosing about 1/3 of my brass to split necks and the shoulders wouldn't properly form untill the second firing.

I was scared as well to use his fire forming loads because they sounded hot to me as they were near max loads for the 140 grain bullets. His loads called for the use of a magnum primer and I substitued a regular primer again because this was my first time fire forming AI brass. However jamming the bullets and following the load data cured most of my fire forming problems, but I still had the occasional split neck. )nly annealing the brass after necking down solved that problem 100%, and I annealed as well after the first fire forming load as well since Gary suggested that if I was still having necks split after I followed his instructions.

I was work hardening the brass as I was having to step down in stages the necks. I used a .35 Whelen die with expander removed first pass, .30-06 die for the second pass, and the .280 GNR die for the last pass. Doing this created a false shoulder, but of course since you can buy .243 brass you don't have to worry about that. Playing with wildcats and AI's can have their challenges, but it is a lot of fun.
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Old October 30, 2012, 09:24 PM   #13
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I had read that, about jamming the bullets. I may try that too.

I tried my hand at annealing last night too. I did the cases I'd fireformed and also a couple of 7mm-08 cases that I sized down to .243. They wouldn't quite hold the same size as the regular .243 cases but they did better after annealing. I'll be much more comfortable with a temperature indications marker.

I had the epiphany that I load .243Win, .243AI and 7mm-08 and I could just buy .308 cases and use them for all. Lapua .308 cases are only $63/100 at Powder Valley.
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Old November 2, 2012, 03:31 PM   #14
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IMO, the significant advantage the Savages hold with the "throat burners" is the cost savings- and no downtime- when it's time for a barrel change. Simple enough to order and keep a "spare" on hand when there's some extra coin floating around- so the 2-4 month wait for a barrel isn't an issue.

Keep us posted on the performance you end up with after your load development. I want to re-barrel my son's 700 with a Rem-Age barrel system, and the .243 AI would fit the bill nicely.
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Old November 2, 2012, 03:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Right now I'm long on want and short on time. I've been able to load 11 fireforming rounds. The first of them were Trail Boss and the next 6 were the lowest max charge of IMR3031 I could find. 3031 scares me a bit, since I'm loading with no real data and it proved hotter than QuickLoad expected in 7mm-08.
Hot is good, at least for fire-forming.

If all else fails, just start low and work up with standard .243 data.


Did you headspace for the classic "crush fit" on standard cases?
Or just set the barrel where you wanted it for .243 AI only?
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Old November 13, 2012, 12:31 PM   #16
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Frankenmauser,

Sorry, just saw your post.

I headspaced it using a 243AI Go-Gauge, it is a crush-fit for standard cases.

If hot is good for fireforming (and I've read you want to use full-power 243 loads) then I just made an couple of errors that created some VERY well fireformed cases.

First, I had been using IMR3031 and Nosler 55gr bullets to do some fireforming but I switched to RL17 and Barnes TTSX so I wanted to get the previous residue out of the barrel. I was short on time (how often does that lead to mistakes!) and I quickly cleaned the barrel and ran an oiled patch through it. I failed to use a bore mop to make sure the chamber was clean of oil.

and then..

I was working up the load using RL17 and Barnes TTSX bullets. I intended to have the bullets set .050 from the rifling. Somehow, I managed to set them 0.100 IN the rifling. I am surprised that I didn't noticed any additional force when closing the bolt but I didn't.

So, this is why we always start low and work up, eh? I noticed an unexpected amount of oil on the first cases but everything appeared otherwise normal until I got two loads below expected max, where I suddenly saw pronounced extractor imprints. After I noticed the obvious imprints, I examined the lower charged cases more closely and I could see very faint extractor marks on almost all of them.

Obviously, I stopped the work up immediately and began investigating. After a discussion with UncleNick and discovering the OAL problem, I went back to the first load that showed the problem and tried again.

Viola! No more imprints.

I was thinking about all those posts we see where someone says "If you're loading over book max, please stay away from my range!" while I was working on this project. I guess those people don't like wildcats much, since there's no such thing as "book max" or even minimum!
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Old November 13, 2012, 09:47 PM   #17
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It sounds like you got lucky with those mistakes.
-

A lot of people like to use light charges for fire-forming and "ease" the case into the shape of the chamber over 2 or more firings. But, I just see that as a waste of case life. Load it where it's supposed to be, and get it done. The quicker you can start working up a load in the fire-formed cases, the better. And, you don't waste as many bullets or as much barrel life. Obviously, if you don't have any previously known-good loads, you may have to work up to it, anyway.


Quote:
I was thinking about all those posts we see where someone says "If you're loading over book max, please stay away from my range!" while I was working on this project. I guess those people don't like wildcats much, since there's no such thing as "book max" or even minimum!
Yea. A substantial portion of the rifle ammunition on my shelves consists of a combination of components with no published data. Quite a few loads were developed by powder charge interpolation - analyzing and compiling data sets for other powders and/or bullets for the cartridge, or similar cartridges, and calculating a good starting charge. (It would be a lot easier to give the component companies a call, but that takes the fun out of it. )

My own 6mm wildcat build has me working at the opposite end of the spectrum, from your AI build. As I've mentioned before, it's a ".243 Win" chamber, but under SAAMI minimum spec by 0.002-0.003" in every dimension, with headspace of "zero". It's a near-perfect fit for already under-size R-P factory brass. The only expansion of fired cases is up to 0.003" (usually 0.001" or less), just above the case web.

But... because the cases don't expand and "cushion" any pressure spikes, I have to keep a close eye on load development. Max loads (so far) have always been reached below published .243 data. And, once primers start to flatten, sticky bolt lift and primer cratering show up much faster than my rifles with generous factory chambers. It really contrasts the performance of my massive "fish-bellied" .270 chamber, that eats over-book-max loads all day long.

Sometimes your goals just require you to color outside the lines.
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Old November 14, 2012, 02:38 AM   #18
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Hey, Brian! Good write-up. Glad you finally got the rifle together. Now you need to do like I do: take a range trip t foro check accuracy, only make sure you start out with an energy drink and a candy bar. And people wonder why I always want to walk down range to check my target!
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