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Old November 12, 2012, 09:21 AM   #51
RedBowTies88
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Just becuase the back end of a target isn't all blown out like a .30 rifle round just does not mean there is a clean .30 cal hole through and through. A round going that fast (Specially at smg velocities around 2200fps) it's going to leave a CONSIDERABLE wound channel through soft tissue, not to mention extreme fragmentation of bone if one was in its path.

At least from an SMG you're talking very similar muzzle energies to 5.56 in a 16" carbine.

The 7.62x25 is defitely pretty close to the top of the list of "pistol" rounds I wouldn't want to get hit with. Reguardless of any old wartime addadges based off the superficial appearance of a wound.
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Old November 12, 2012, 02:34 PM   #52
micromontenegro
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Google search for "Russisch Eispickel" brings page upon page without anything gun-related. Trotzki galore.

"Russisch Eispickel 7.62mm" brings only two pages- and not a single line about pistols there.

Also, the caliber started out as a German one. Maybe we should search for Deutsches Eispickel instead?
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Old November 12, 2012, 03:15 PM   #53
Mike Irwin
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Maybe it was a slang term that soldiers used because of the means by which Trotsky was killed. That event happened less than a year before Germany and the Soviet Union went to war.

His Grandson and I were flipping through a book I had gotten on WW II armaments. He came in behind us, didn't say anything when I flipped past the German guns, but when I hit the section on Soviet submachine guns, said "Russian Ice Pick. Saw many of those," or something to that effect, and a few other comments on how much he hated the Russians.

Up to that point I didn't even know the man had been in the war.

Later, his daughter told me that that was the first time he had ever alluded to anyone of having been in the German Army. He fought in Russia, was captured by the Soviets at some point, and didn't make it back to Germany until the 1950s, being one of the lucky few who actually survived Soviet captivity.

He apparently reveled in the dissolution of the Soviet Union combined with the reunification of Germany, and died about a year later.

The cartridge did originate with the 7.63x25 Mauser, but it wasn't in use by Germany (at least much) during World War II, so it's very doubtful that he would have had any reason to call it the German Ice Pick.
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Old November 12, 2012, 03:58 PM   #54
wayneinFL
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In any case, I haven't heard anyone say that the 7.62x25 FMJ should be used for self defense. I think we're all in agreement that the best use if FMJ is on the target range.

Has anyone here ever done a wildcat cartridge? Anybody have any idea what it would cost to make a custom barrel for a Glock 20? And dies? Giving more thought to the idea of a 10mm or 40 necked down to a 30 or 32 cal...
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Old November 12, 2012, 09:58 PM   #55
barnbwt
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Yeah, the only thing tok FMJ is good for is body armor penetration. I mean, that was the whole point, right? But nowadays we want expansion (to get bigger bullets out of smaller packages so we aren't all forced to carry 45s), and you need energy (i.e. velocity) to dump into deforming the bullet. Tok HP is very much a modern round; being an older cartridge "magnumized" into a high pressure, high velocity expansion round (again, basically a .30automag)

FNH probably would have used it in the P90 if they didn't think they'd get more money by making their own cartridge (bet H&K was thinking exactly the same thing!). It's not the gun cost that gets ya, but the ammo

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Old November 13, 2012, 03:52 AM   #56
Rainbow Demon
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Quote:
Just becuase the back end of a target isn't all blown out like a .30 rifle round just does not mean there is a clean .30 cal hole through and through. A round going that fast (Specially at smg velocities around 2200fps) it's going to leave a CONSIDERABLE wound channel through soft tissue, not to mention extreme fragmentation of bone if one was in its path.

At least from an SMG you're talking very similar muzzle energies to 5.56 in a 16" carbine.
I've seen the figure of 1800 FPS quoted for the 7.62X25 post WW2 SMG loadings, a more powerful round than that used during WW2.
The same SMG load was quoted as traveling at 1500-1600 FPS from a handgun.
Every site I can find quotes muzzle velocity of the PPSH as 1600 FPS, which sounds right for the standard pistol loading fired from the longer barrel of the SMG.

A couple of years ago I ran across a site with X-rays of a 7.62X25 Steel Core milspec bullet buried deeply in a victims ankle. It was a pretty badly messed up ankle , but not shattered as you might expect.
The X-rays came from a police shooting scrape, not sure who shot who, but apparently the Tokarev is still in use by some former Soviet Bloc police.

Even at 1800 FPS from an SMG the 7.62X25 would have somewhat less energy than the M-1 Carbine.

IIRC the 1800 FPS SMG load was developed to counter U S body armor of the Korean War era.
The PPSH with the early ammunition could penetrate most flak jackets and helmets at close range, but not always at longer ranges.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; November 13, 2012 at 04:23 AM.
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Old November 13, 2012, 11:00 AM   #57
micromontenegro
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Very nice story, Mike. Will look hi and lo to try and find the German term.
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Old November 13, 2012, 11:15 PM   #58
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I used to carry a Tokarev TTC as my back country defense plan.
Ammo un/availability has forced me to migrate to .40, but I never felt nervous with it.
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