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Old November 11, 2012, 11:02 AM   #26
jmortimer
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Target acquisition is faster with a bead. All the professional exhibition shooters set speed and number of targets broken records with a bead. From the AIP Tactical web site:
"Ghost rings can get you killed ( my opinion)." Bead sight or rifle sights and yes the tritium inserts for the rifle sights are worth it on this weapon."
That is the owner of AIP's "opinion" not mine. I'll take his advice. This is home defense, not a war.
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Old November 11, 2012, 11:28 AM   #27
hogdogs
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Quote:
The first thing IMO to remember is the shotgun isn't tactical. You are.
AMEN!!! Tactical is a mindset... it is neither a noun nor an adjective...

If guns are "tactical" than so is my toilet paper... I use planning and fold it into a neat square, wipe and fold into a triangle than another wipe and fold...

I am tactically getting every bit of use so it is now tactical toilet paper...???

Brent
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Old November 11, 2012, 12:33 PM   #28
natman
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"Ghost rings can get you killed ( my opinion)."
Yet another unexplained opinion. Anyone got a reasonable explanation why ghost rings are supposed to be so bad?
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Old November 11, 2012, 05:11 PM   #29
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If guns are "tactical" than so is my toilet paper...
I love it!
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Old November 11, 2012, 05:16 PM   #30
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Anyone got a reasonable explanation why ghost rings are supposed to be so bad?
While Ghost Rings may be more accurate when firing slugs at distant targets, the accuracy of a bead sight is enough and speed is more important at home defense distances.
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Old November 11, 2012, 05:26 PM   #31
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you would be better served getting a lower cost shotgun and then spending the additional budget on ammo and training from a good school/instructor.

If it were my $1,500 I'd get an remingtom 870 (but a 590 is fine) used if possible for around $500 or less and then an SOE gear micro shotgun rig and the rest on ammo and a class like suarez int shotgun or gunsight shotgun class or tactical response. After the class if I think I need a different shotgun I'd have the knowledge to make an informed selection.
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Old November 12, 2012, 03:31 PM   #32
natman
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While Ghost Rings may be more accurate when firing slugs at distant targets, the accuracy of a bead sight is enough and speed is more important at home defense distances.
Well, it's a start.

Please explain why you think GRS are slower than a bead.

Also please mention if you have ever:

Owned a shotgun with GRS
Fired a shotgun with GRS
Handled a shotgun with GRS

Can you explain the difference between GRS and a peep sight?
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Old November 12, 2012, 05:46 PM   #33
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Let me chime in on a couple of things. Yes, if you are looking for a pump specifically the Browning action makes follow up shots quicker and more smoothly than any other pump. Partly the geometry of the gun, very little muzzle rise. Couple that with a smooth fast action and it definitely makes you better.
Now onto Ghost Ring sights. The first time I had an opportunity to take my BPS out it was not at a skeet range but at a local area used for shooting. I threw a bunch of clay pigeons up and down the hill and tried to hit three in a row as quickly as the gun would let me. Bruised the crap out of my shoulder running through multiple boxes because it was so much fun Shoulder the gun, drop the bead onto the target, pull the trigger, transition to the next target, pull trigger, etc. There is no possible way I could have transitioned from target to target as quickly as I did while keeping my eye focused through a small hole. As soon as the bead hit the target it would almost disappear on it's own by the end. I like and have used ghost ring sights but at least I can't use them as quickly as that. BTW I think I stumbled onto a fun (but not painless) way to train to use my home defense weapon, after the first time, my reflexes were already well on their way to where they needed to be, and subsequent sessions tuned them further. I KNOW if I have to pick up my BPS in the middle of the night that I can unload as many rounds as are needed accurately and quickly.
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Old November 12, 2012, 06:37 PM   #34
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A couple more points here....

a. If a shotgun fits you ....there shouldn't be any bruising to your shoulder or face, etc......unless you're doing something very fundamentally wrong - with the mount or execution of the shot. I'm a clay target shooter ...and in a 12ga where my loads are not powder puff loads ...but 1 oz at 1225 fps ...I can easily handle 10 boxes a day ...if I'm doing things correctly. ( and I'm in my 60's with a completely rebuilt shoulder and only half a bicep in my shooting arm).

b. Practicing with what you consider a Defensive shotgun ...on clay targets is a good idea ...because its an easy way to practice sucessive shots ..at least 2 shots anyway ...on a number of target presentations. Now if your defensive shotgun doesn't have changeable screw in chokes / and you have just an open Cyclinder choke in the gun ...you can compensate a little to tighten it up by shooting 1 oz or 1 1/8oz loads of 7 1/2's vs 8's or 9's ....and even though typical OO Buck loads are often heavier payloads at faster velocities that "clay loads" ....you can run some loads like Remington Nitro Sporting clay loads 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2's at 1300 fps ...thru those guns and they'll give you some "pop" as well ...and still be legal to shoot on a clay target field ( most clubs won't let you go any bigger than 7 1/2's -- because of safety on their ranges ).

This is a typical Remington OO shell....
12 Gauge, Remington Express Buckshot, 2 3/4", 000 Lead Buckshot, 8 Pellets, 5 Round Box, 1325 FPS.
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Old November 12, 2012, 11:14 PM   #35
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[QUOTE][/If guns are "tactical" than so is my toilet paper... I use planning and fold it into a neat square, wipe and fold into a triangle than another wipe and fold...
QUOTE]

oh way to much information....with all the things that keep me up at night i sure didn't need that bouncing around in my head.
But good point!!
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Old November 13, 2012, 12:36 AM   #36
scrubcedar
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BigJim this is my first shotgun (a BPS hunter, synthetic stock) and seems to have great ergonomics for me, but there is no question I feel the recoil more with it than I do with others I've borrowed. I just figured that the lack of muzzle rise had to do with the barrel sitting a little higher than other shotguns and that it therefore directed recoil toward my shoulder rather than the others that the barrel rose more but didn't hit so hard. I think the term is it has more drop at the comb than others. It may very well be fitted wrong for me as I have very long arms and a long torso. How would I know? Having recently injured my shoulder this has become a much more important question.
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Old November 13, 2012, 02:38 PM   #37
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Ghost ring sights are very nice indeed but I find them slower and somewhat harder to use inside buildings. I have gone through shoot houses with them and it narrows your field of vision and it can be slower on target. I find the beed sight or rifled sights (the williams fire sights are awesome,) much quicker in a shoot house and easier ID of threat / no threat. This is just me though, if you gave me a slicked out shotgun with ghost ring sights I would keep it!
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Old November 15, 2012, 03:22 PM   #38
natman
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Target acquisition is faster with a bead. All the professional exhibition shooters set speed and number of targets broken records with a bead.
They were wingshooting. I'll readily agree that GRS have no business on a gun used for wingshooting. However, the topic under discussion is self defense shotguns, an entirely different application.

Quote:
From the AIP Tactical web site:
"Ghost rings can get you killed ( my opinion)." Bead sight or rifle sights and yes the tritium inserts for the rifle sights are worth it on this weapon."
That is the owner of AIP's "opinion" not mine. I'll take his advice. This is home defense, not a war.
It's seems there are a lot of people who criticize GRS uninhibited by a complete lack of understanding of how GRS work or any experience with them whatsoever. Now the proprietor of AIP has enough experience in combat shotguns that had he chosen to back that statement up with some sort of rational explanation as to why, I would have read it with great interest. However since he didn't, I remain unconvinced.

While we're swapping quotes, here one from Jeff Cooper, who knew a thing or two about defense guns:

Quote:
Hard as it may be to believe, there are still people around who do not know about the "ghost−ring" sight. This sighting system was described in the early decades of the twentieth century by both Townsend Whelen and Karamojo Bell. It is so far superior to any form of open sight, for either snap shooting or precision work, that there is simply nothing to discuss.

Cooper's Commentaries, No. 1, Vol 9
Not that it's stopping us.

Here's another:

Quote:
I was able to deliver the Marlin "Co−pilot" from Wild West in Alaska to its new home as a lion−stopper in Africa. This piece, as you know, is a cutdown and customized version of the Marlin Model 95 45−70. It was much admired in the field, and one of its most admired features was a sighting system I proposed, which consists of a brilliant red shrouded bead front and a Steve Wickert ghost−ring rear. This is about the fastest arrangement I have seen, and considering that the weapon will not ordinarily be used beyond a range of 25 meters, it is every bit as precise as the shooter can make it.

Cooper's Commentaries, No. 4, Vol 5
I suspect that a lot of people think that GRS are slow because their only experience is with peep sights on target rifles. On a peep, the hole is small and one centers the front sight precisely for maximum accuracy.

GRS, despite their superficial resemblance to peep sights, do NOT work the same way. When using a GRS, one simply puts the front sight on the target. One does not look at the rear sight at all. The eye will reflexively center the front sight in the ring and no conscious effort or time is wasted doing so. The result is a very fast and accurate sight.

Here's an article that explains it well:

http://africanxmag.com/ghost_rings.htm
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Old November 15, 2012, 04:01 PM   #39
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Natman, Just answer one simple question. This assumes that an HD situation occurs in the middle of the night and there is very little ambient lighting, the BG is mobile, and you are at a relatively close range (no more than 10 yards). In general, which system will more quickly acquire the target; bead or ghost ring?

Than answer this. Does either system generally require significantly more practice time for a shooter to become proficient under extreme stress, as in a home defense situation.

My point is what is the better system for a non pro. I do expect the lay shotgunner not to just to purchase and park a weapon, but I do not expect them to perform like SWAT.

I will add that I can see why a LEO might prefer GSR, but they are more likely to have greater need of more precision sights. They have to perform in outdoors situations requiring accuracy at greater distances. Should they go into dark indoors environments, they are hopefully equipped and trained with the use of gun lights. Whatever, I remind you we are speaking here of Home Defense.

You probably know this better than myself, but the fact is that many target shooters prefer NO sights. That does not mean that they do not point there gun at the target, but a well fit and mounted shotgun points where they look.

Last edited by TheKlawMan; November 15, 2012 at 04:09 PM.
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Old November 15, 2012, 04:10 PM   #40
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I'm not a SD/HD expert by any means, but for $1500 (as stated in the OP), I'd be looking for:
  • a used Rem 870 or Mossberg;
  • a few goodies & mods (stock, mag extension, sights); and
  • the rest in ammunition.

Personally, I'm an 870 guy, but there's nothing wrong with Mossberg, either. IMHO, getting a basic gun and lots of trigger time is probably a better plan than a really fancy gun but no bullet budget.
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Old November 15, 2012, 05:12 PM   #41
natman
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Natman, Just answer one simple question. This assumes that an HD situation occurs in the middle of the night and there is very little ambient lighting, the BG is mobile, and you are at a relatively close range (no more than 10 yards). In general, which system will more quickly acquire the target; bead or ghost ring?
If it's that dark, you should shine your light and identify your target. HD is not combat; you can't just blast away at a form in the dark lest it turn out to be your neighbor stumbling into the wrong house after a night at the bar.

A GRS is not faster than a bead, but it's just as fast and delivers a better chance of a hit where you want it.

Quote:
Than answer this. Does either system generally require significantly more practice time for a shooter to become proficient under extreme stress, as in a home defense situation.

My point is what is the better system for a non pro. I do expect the lay shotgunner not to just to purchase and park a weapon, but I do not expect them to perform like SWAT.
This is a good point. GRS are without a doubt a better system for a beginner under stress because the rear sight gives a clear indicator of where your head is supposed to be. It's all too easy to keep your head high in order to see your target better and with a bead you can shoot right over your target, even at HD distances.

Quote:
You probably know this better than myself, but the fact is that many target shooters prefer NO sights. That does not mean that they do not point there gun at the target, but a well fit and mounted shotgun points where they look.
Again, wingshooting. And again, I'll agree a bead, or nothing, is better than a GRS for wingshooting. It's different than HD, unless you're repelling an invasion of vampire bats or something similar.

If your shotgun fits perfectly and you mount it perfectly, then the GRS will be lined up perfectly. Best of both worlds.

Look, there's plenty of room for personal preference in this and if a bead works for you, that's great. I just wanted to dispel some of the misunderstandings and outright nonsense that seems to surround GRS.
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Old November 15, 2012, 07:50 PM   #42
TheKlawMan
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Natman, I said there is "very lilttle ambient light" and did not say that you could not identify the target. Am I not correct that ambient illumination can suffice to id Mr. BG, but be low enough to make GRS slower to use than a simple bead sight? Some beleive that by using your light you just made a target of yourself, whereas before Mr. BG may not have spotted your position. Forget wing shooting and focus on hitting a BG as he darts from one place to the other.
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Old November 15, 2012, 09:20 PM   #43
Noreaster
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Much of debate over peep sights and or ghost ring sights. Let me just say this, when confronting a threat or searching for a threat you are really amped up and your eyes are bulged out looking down range. With a bead or rifled sights the sight is forward and in your peripheral vision and easier to pick up when the threat is confronted. High speed operators in the military and Law Enforcement now place their red dot sights forward as far as it will go entry carbines so they have a wider field of vision and the sights are easier to pick up when you need them.

Another factor is proper use of GSR type sights. You need a good cheek weld and your nose as close to the sight as possible. Some find this harder to achieve or maintain with the recoil of shotguns. I can use a GRS just fine on a combat shotgun but for room clearing a bead front sight or rifled sights. With a GRS on the receiver it is much harder to use front sight only shooting (reflex, point shooting...,) as they teach for close range work at Quantico.

You want a GRS go for it. Nothing wrong with it just practice allot and prepare yourself. If you have the occasion to do scenario based shooting or force on force like simmunitions you will appreciate a bead or rifled sights in a typical house structure. Better yet have someone set up shoot / no shoot targets for you with corners and blind spots within five to seven yards and then run the exercise with ghost ring sights and a bead sight and check your times.
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:47 PM   #44
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Winchester SXP. These guns are great and can be used for both home defense and hunting as you can get barrel packages. The actions on them are so fast that under recoil the action unlocks itself. In a semi I'd have to recommend an SX3.

Winchester has the fastest shotguns out there, period.
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Old November 16, 2012, 12:58 AM   #45
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I'm no expert by any means. Just a few of my own experiences.

I've shot a few timed courses over the years that started outside of a building during midday(sunny)to the inside of a building with low light conditions. As well as courses simulating a building sweep with low light conditions and pop-up targets. Some targets BG, some GG.

Have used shotguns with GRS, bead and rifle sights. My best times were always with a florescent bead. Especially on the course going from daylight to low-light conditions. Some of the BG targets would pop up next to each other within a split second. I didn't loose much time on these targets with the GRS versus the bead or rifled sights. The targets I lost time on with the GRS were the BG targets that popped up within seconds of each other that were several feet apart. Seems the further the targets were apart when they popped up the more time I lost using the GRS compared to the other sights.

But in all fairness, I've shot more with bead and rifle sights over my lifetime then the GRS's. Maybe I just need more range time with a GSR.
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Old November 16, 2012, 02:05 PM   #46
ripnbst
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WTH is GRS/GSR?
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Old November 16, 2012, 02:57 PM   #47
shortwave
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GSR = Ghost Sight Ring

GRS = Ghost Ring Sight

same difference.
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Old November 16, 2012, 03:29 PM   #48
natman
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Quote:
Natman, I said there is "very lilttle ambient light" and did not say that you could not identify the target. Am I not correct that ambient illumination can suffice to id Mr. BG, but be low enough to make GRS slower to use than a simple bead sight?
Ok, let's say that target ID is not a problem, but lighting is still poor. Let's see, which is easier to find in low light, a tiny 3/32" bead or a 3/16" wide sight that's half an inch tall? Tough decision.

Quote:
Some beleive that by using your light you just made a target of yourself, whereas before Mr. BG may not have spotted your position.
Some do not understand the difference between HD and combat. In HD you can't just blast away at a form in the dark.

Quote:
With a GRS on the receiver it is much harder to use front sight only shooting (reflex, point shooting...,) as they teach for close range work at Quantico.
The point I've been trying, and apparently failing, to make is that proper use of GRS is front sight only work. It's just accurate front sight only work.
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Old November 16, 2012, 05:48 PM   #49
Noreaster
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Sorry bout the GSR/GRS spelling. Natman I know what you mean and yes shooting a peep or GRS you only focus on the target and front sight, no rear sight to line up. Peep sights offer accurate and precise shooting. If you train with a GRS I'm sure you will be fast and accurate. My opinion is based on my own experience. I find it easier to negotiate a home without a GRS. I also don't like lasers on handgun but many people use them with ease and swear by them.
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Old November 16, 2012, 06:26 PM   #50
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I have a BSA Meteor airgun set up with a ghostring rear, and I've hit birds in flight. That pretty much sold me.
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