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Old November 11, 2012, 05:30 PM   #51
Bart B.
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Mobuck says:
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The comment about no two people having the same zero is bunk. Take this for what it's worth. My older brother was about as different from me as could be. He was left handed, about 6'1", 250-270#. I'm right handed, 5'9", 150-165#. I sighted his rifles in all the time and he then fired a couple of shots to confirm-into the same group.
Well, if folks do that with apparent succes, I doubt they're able to shoot no worse than about 1 MOA with the sights used. Especially when a couple of shots have less than a 20% chance of represent where the zero's at. If you're both shooting about 2 MOA or thereabouts, it is quite possible that the same sight settings will seem to work.

With a rifle and ammo capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and both shooters able to call shots within 1/3 MOA of exact, then you'll see the difference in sight settings.
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Old November 12, 2012, 08:44 PM   #52
jimmythegeek
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Hi, Aaron. Get to an Appleseed!

You'll get coaching and some history lessons and they'll help YOU zero YOUR rifle. They brought me all the way up to mediocre, and that's an accomplishment close to the Moon landings in degree of difficulty.

www.appleseedinfo.org
Looks like there's one about 3 hours away from Stillwater, in Centerton, AR on Dec 15-16
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=27040.0

Typically folks shoot .22LR semi-autos, but you can shoot what ya got, and your CZ Trainer would be fine. I qualified with a CZ-455. Just practice working the bolt in the time it takes to inhale and exhale, you don't have to go any faster than that. You need at least 2 magazines, and practice changing them seated and prone. They gave me lots of advice for running a bolt action in this thread: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=26206.0
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:10 AM   #53
Picher
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As a gunsmith, I've sighted in at least a thousand rifles for others over the years and have never had anyone come back and say it was wrong for them.

At a turkey shoot, four of us used the same rifle to fire one round each and all of us hit the 1" target center on separate shooting rounds, winning 6 turkeys that day. We were shooting prone over a log at 100 yards and the rifle was a .22-250, Rem 700 ADL, 2-8X scope, shooting 55 gr, Sierra Semi-point handloads.

At another shoot, on a bet, my wife shot a perfect pinwheel with the same rifle; her one and only shot in competition, 7 months pregnant, laying on an angle, due to her belly. It wasn't a pretty scene, when other wives were asking her to teach their husbands how to shoot. Most of the guys never returned the next week, so they never held turkey shoots again.
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People are like rifles. Some are tried and true, having great eyes, personality, and fun to be with. Others never seem to hit the mark with you. Still others go off half-cocked. Still, it's nice to know most of them.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:12 AM   #54
Bart B.
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Picher sez:
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As a gunsmith, I've sighted in at least a thousand rifles for others over the years and have never had anyone come back and say it was wrong for them.

At a turkey shoot, four of us used the same rifle to fire one round each and all of us hit the 1" target center on separate shooting rounds, winning 6 turkeys that day. We were shooting prone over a log at 100 yards and the rifle was a .22-250, Rem 700 ADL, 2-8X scope, shooting 55 gr, Sierra Semi-point handloads.

At another shoot, on a bet, my wife shot a perfect pinwheel with the same rifle; her one and only shot in competition, 7 months pregnant, laying on an angle, due to her belly. It wasn't a pretty scene, when other wives were asking her to teach their husbands how to shoot. Most of the guys never returned the next week, so they never held turkey shoots again.
Well, if folks do that with apparent succes, I doubt they're able to shoot no worse than about 1 MOA with the sights used. Especially when 1 or 2 shots have less than a 10% chance of represent where the zero's at. If you're both shooting about 2 MOA or thereabouts, it is quite possible that the same sight settings will seem to work.

With a rifle and ammo capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and both shooters able to call shots within 1/3 MOA of exact, then you'll see the difference in sight settings.

Picher, I think your own and your customers/relatives accuracy standards and levels ain't enough to discriminate the small zero differences that exist between people and a given rifle and ammo. No slam intended, but we all don't have the same levels of marksmanship.

PS: Most of the top prone competitors shoot with their bodies on an angle; that's been happening for over a century.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:36 AM   #55
Picher
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I agree with you Bart. Anyone who can shoot 1/4 min. should be able to sight-in his/her own rifle to meet their own standards.

When I sight-in rifles for customers, I ask them if they have any preferences for zero or maximum zero range. If not, I'll use my computer ballistics program to find the best compromise zero for the distances most people of their capability are likely to shoot a deer, etc. and the rifle/cartridge/bullet weight they'll be using, etc. (They will usually provide the ammo, but if not, we'll agree on the ammo to be used.)

I also try to simulate the conditions they will encounter in the field, often resting the rifle on my off-hand on the front rest, to simulate an offhand shot. Sometimes it makes quite a difference in POI, especially if the barrel isn't free-floated. If, after being warned, someone rests their barrel instead of the forend, that's their problem.
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Old November 29, 2012, 03:25 PM   #56
Husqvarna
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I know my brother and me shots to different zeros in several rifles we have sighted in, he can group them but they are of.

this is me being a LH and he being a RH to so the twist of the barrel factors in?

He made his own scout rifle to but neither me nor my father can get that to shoot straight but my bro keeps it sub moa
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Old November 29, 2012, 05:29 PM   #57
Bart B.
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Husqvarna wonders:
Quote:
I know my brother and me shots to different zeros in several rifles we have sighted in, he can group them but they are of.

this is me being a LH and he being a RH to so the twist of the barrel factors in?
I think its caused by the way the rifle recoils when shot by lefties and righties. Rifles tend to move to the right before the bullet leaves the barrel when shot by right handed people; to the left for left handed ones. So, if the rifle's sighted in by a right handed person, a left handed one will need to make a windage correction to the left on the sights.
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Old November 29, 2012, 09:40 PM   #58
sirdiealot
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maybe and just throwing this out...but bore sight it.....see if your sight pic is going toward the red dot....that might tell you if your sights are off
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Old November 30, 2012, 08:43 AM   #59
Bart B.
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I've put optical collimators in several 1/3 MOA rifles well zeroed at 100 yards. None of their sights (scope, iron nor apeture) aligned at a point below the collimator's reticule equal to sight height above bore plus bullet drop.
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