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Old November 3, 2012, 07:29 PM   #126
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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Sig P220 or P229 either one.
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Old November 4, 2012, 07:17 AM   #127
Nathan
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Even if that were true in some parallel universe, they still shoot... wait for it... .40 caliber bullets.
Oh yea. . .GOT IT!
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Old November 4, 2012, 04:23 PM   #128
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Testing projectiles and predicting their terminal performance, has been an accepted science for over 20 years, and used by every major military and law enforcement organization in the country. The results continue to correlate with field results. Unfortunately, some folks still prefer anecdotal stories, gun magazines, fictional street shooting "studies", and internet bloggers, but those numbers are dwindling. Much to the consternation of those who financially gain from promoting junk science and whiz bang ammo in their magazine articles and blogs.

Speer has a load comparison tool on their website. You can choose various loads and then view them side by side.

http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/l...omparison.aspx

The best .40 and 9mm, penetrate and expand similarly. That is how pistol bullets work. Not through some kind of mumbo jumbo.

Comparing other manufacturers products legitimately tested, will yield similar results.

Bullet technology has continued to improve, and the benefits .40 offered 20 years ago have diminished. The slight improvement some .40 loads give over some 9mm loads, is arguably not worth the penalty in recoil, lowered capacity, and increased cost.

That fact is becoming clear to those who study the subject, and it's why some agencies have converted to .45 from their .40's, to get real improvement, and why some have gone back to 9mm, and more are making plans to.
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Old November 4, 2012, 06:13 PM   #129
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That fact is becoming clear to those who study the subject, and it's why some agencies have converted to .45 from their .40's, to get real improvement, and why some have gone back to 9mm, and more are making plans to.
Most agencies choose based on budget, whatever meets the specs and is in budget is what gets bought.. Total fallacy that 45,40 and 9mm all have the same performance.

E-MCsquared - The force of the recoil = the force going forward

Are you telling me 9mm per same specs on a given gun recoils more than a 45??? Sorry no...

45 certainly can expand to a greater diameter, 40 and 9mm are closer in expansion. The main thing is accuracy is king and in general the diameter of the cavity is significant enough among all these rounds to produce the results needed for self defense.

Shoot whatever works for you, but 9mm is only king of self defense rounds if its what you like and choose to use, same for all the other rounds.
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Old November 4, 2012, 07:01 PM   #130
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Most agencies choose based on budget, whatever meets the specs and is in budget is what gets bought..
Since a majority of agencies in the country went to .40, which cost them more, it's inaccurate to say they choose completely based on budget.
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Total fallacy that 45,40 and 9mm all have the same performance.
Of course it is.

Did you think someone here claimed they did?
Quote:
E-MCsquared - The force of the recoil = the force going forward
If you're referring to Newton's 3rd law, it's true.

Unfortunately that has little to do with terminal performance of handgun projectiles. Unless you believe that muzzle energy is indicative of performance.
Quote:
Are you telling me 9mm per same specs on a given gun recoils more than a 45??? Sorry no...
Again, you're apparently readings things I must have missed.

Quote:
45 certainly can expand to a greater diameter, 40 and 9mm are closer in expansion.
Correct. Some 9mm loads expand more and penetrate deeper than some .40 loads, and vice versa.

Quote:
The main thing is accuracy is king and in general the diameter of the cavity is significant enough among all these rounds to produce the results needed for self defense.
Indeed. Shot placement trumps any differences in performance.

Which is why the easier to shoot 9mm can be argued as a better choice than the similarly performing, but heavier recoiling .40.

Quote:
Shoot whatever works for you, but 9mm is only king of self defense rounds if its what you like and choose to use, same for all the other rounds.
"King of self defense rounds"? Again, did I miss another post?

But if you're suggesting that folks should use what they like and shoot well, I agree.
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Old November 4, 2012, 08:52 PM   #131
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Old November 4, 2012, 09:45 PM   #132
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Beretta 92fs/m9 because I find it to be very tough by the way it's constructed, a pretty solid feel. I really like certain things about it for me at least like the safety. You may feel like carrying chambered with a little less anxiety of discharge due to your safety. Another main thing is say is if the magazine is damaged I can take the ammo out of it and put it back in the pistol's chamber so I can load a shot at a time in the barrel thats a real feel of comfort, also if the firing pin fractures it still has the external hammer to help it fire shots off. At least I heard that quote. That I think mainly and the amount of steel and aluminum mainly to be lighter make it a viable choice for me. Although cleaning is required alot more than mabey most semis but the takedown operation is very easy for me and no real issue so, I will be definately cleaning it as often because that therefore makes me feel more confident having it with me. The factory set trigger squeeze till break is high poundage so I have bought some lower poundage hammer springs which are not to hard to put in. Just watch a youtube vid on how to do it.
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Old November 5, 2012, 01:17 PM   #133
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Full size Glock in 357Sig, having said that I don't own a Glock or a pistol in 357 Sig.
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Old November 5, 2012, 01:54 PM   #134
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Holster would have a higher priority

Not exactly what was asked, but carry systems would be the first issue.

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Old November 5, 2012, 03:22 PM   #135
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Since a majority of agencies in the country went to .40, which cost them more, it's inaccurate to say they choose completely based on budget.
I did not say budget was the sole determining factor I said it had to meet the specifications that were set out also...

Quote:
Unfortunately that has little to do with terminal performance of handgun projectiles. Unless you believe that muzzle energy is indicative of performance.
Weight and Energy along with the expansion or non expansion of the round will matter. Physics matter along with accuracy.

Lastly not everyone is incapable of handling a 45 with the same relative ease as a 9mm. I am a physically large guy and I find 9mm,40,45 are all relatively a non challenge in handling recoil. Some people have different strenght and different builds of course. Besides if done correctly lets hope more than one or two shots arent necessary.
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Old November 5, 2012, 09:49 PM   #136
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I did not say budget was the sole determining factor I said it had to meet the specifications that were set out also...
OK, then we agree. Good. Agencies don't buy just on costs.

Quote:
Weight and Energy along with the expansion or non expansion of the round will matter. Physics matter along with accuracy.
The energy of a handgun round does not determine it's terminal performance. There are 9mm and .38 Special rounds with higher energies than most .45 ACP rounds.

Quote:
Lastly not everyone is incapable of handling a 45 with the same relative ease as a 9mm. I am a physically large guy and I find 9mm,40,45 are all relatively a non challenge in handling recoil. Some people have different strenght and different builds of course. .
You were arguing about Newton's 3rd law earlier. It applies here. A 9mm will recoil less than a .40 or .45 in a similar weight gun.

I've been shooting .45's since the early 70's, competitively for a number of those years. I would not argue a 9mm isn't easier to shoot. Just as a 9mm is easier to shoot than a .40. Given .40 and 9mm's similar performance levels, I'd carry a 9. It has nothing to do with being unable to handle a .40.
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Old November 6, 2012, 11:40 AM   #137
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I've been shooting .45's since the early 70's, competitively for a number of those years. I would not argue a 9mm isn't easier to shoot. Just as a 9mm is easier to shoot than a .40. Given .40 and 9mm's similar performance levels, I'd carry a 9. It has nothing to do with being unable to handle a .40.
Recoil is a range issue. Anyone can train past it. I have seen 5' tall 100lb woman shooting 12 gauge slugs.

The dedication level is what is missing in today's young cops. The new generation of cops is not the same as it relates to gun handling. They could probably text in an order for a double latte while in a pursuit though.
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Old November 6, 2012, 12:44 PM   #138
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Agreed. I used to only shoot .40 and very well. I switched to 9mm & .45 a little over a year ago.

SIG Sauer 1911 XO - Custom Springfield MilSpec 1911 - Colt Gold Cup Trophy Model 1911 - Colt 70 Series 1911 - SIG Sauer P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - Walther PPQ - Glock 17 - Glock 34 - Glock 19 - Glock 21SF - Glock 22 - S&W Model 19 - H&k USP 40 - Remington Magnum 870 - Rock River AR-15 & Getting myself back in LE soon enough..Miss it.
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:01 PM   #139
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First I would be grateful for being able to choose from a list like that even though there would be others I would rather have.

1. SIG/Sauer P220 Caliber of choice Super .38.
2. Beretta 92
3. HK USP 9mm
3. Colt .45
4. Glock 17
5. XD9
6. S&W .38
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:57 PM   #140
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Given my choice, I'd go with a Glock 17 and a Glock 26 as my backup weapon.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:11 PM   #141
Elmer
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Recoil is a range issue. Anyone can train past it.
Unless you possess some special magical powers, you cannot "train past" the fact that 9mm recoils less than .40.
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:26 AM   #142
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Elmer

Quote: Recoil is a range issue. Anyone can train past it.

Unless you possess some special magical powers, you cannot "train past" the fact that 9mm recoils less than .40.
Agreed--though there are indeed exceptions (we all know and admire those of whom can shoot a cannon as well as a mouse-gun equally effective) the "key" variable of recoil is not an easily overcome variable for most of the "basic" gun owners that purchase a gun for the same reason they purchase a hammer so to speak--they will learn to swing the hammer or pull the trigger only so far as to become sufficient with "said tool." So that's why I believe we are seeing tons of the smaller caliber guns <.45acp as they are generally more quickly learned/controlled (costs too is a factor but IMO less so). Conversely, most of us in the forums here can learn/adapt to recoil as we look at it as an enjoyable challenge if you will (hence the proverbial saying YMMV).
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Old November 7, 2012, 02:04 PM   #143
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It would make you wonder how the rest of the world is happy with the 9mm. There is a world outside the united states. Maybe the police in the USA are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
The 9mm is the perfect round for Europeans and women. For US Men: 45ACP.
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Old November 7, 2012, 02:39 PM   #144
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Oh Kevin, that's a good one. I may have to steal that. To the original question my choice would be a 4 in. S&W 625 with 250 gr. hard cast bullets. Or a 4 in. Model 57 (also with hard cast bullets) I really can't get excited about any of the Euroguns that everybody's blathering about. An endless procession of small injection molded polymer trash stuffed with large quantities of tiny bullets. Ho hum I say. Twaddle indeed.

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Old November 7, 2012, 04:52 PM   #145
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While on active duty as a LEO I carried a S&W 4006 .40 cal. as a service weapon.

FWIW, now that I'm retired I carry a Ruger blackhawk .45 colt ( sometimes even two of them ).
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:16 PM   #146
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Unless you possess some special magical powers, you cannot "train past" the fact that 9mm recoils less than .40.
So What? A 44 magnum recoils more too. The point is can you handle the recoil? You can train to the point that you expect the blast and recoil of a Magnum, what is so difficult. In a real shooting you are not going to feel recoil, you are not going to consciously hear the gun in all probability. You will be loaded with adrenaline, like I said recoil is a range issue. The only time I can see it as an issue is if it hurts to shoot and the person will not shoot enough to become proficient.

I understand that anyone can shoot a 9mm faster than they can shoot a 40 in the same gun, so what?
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:21 PM   #147
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The 9mm is the perfect round for Europeans and women. For US Men: 45ACP.
No, actually, the euro-dudes are a bit soft for the powerful 9mm luger. I think they prefer 32 ACP is service guns there!

US women should be able to make a 9mm sing fine though.. . agreed there.

I like the 45ACP. . .nothing beats diameter! I have been known to cheap on my 1911's though with a 40 s&w or 357 mag on occasion though!
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:41 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
So What? A 44 magnum recoils more too. The point is can you handle the recoil? You can train to the point that you expect the blast and recoil of a Magnum, what is so difficult. In a real shooting you are not going to feel recoil, you are not going to consciously hear the gun in all probability. You will be loaded with adrenaline, like I said recoil is a range issue. The only time I can see it as an issue is if it hurts to shoot and the person will not shoot enough to become proficient.

I understand that anyone can shoot a 9mm faster than they can shoot a 40 in the same gun, so what?
I agree with this. I personally have very low recoil sensitivity. It takes about 200 rounds through my LCP before it is uncomfortable and I think .357 Magnum in a J-frame isn't really that bad. Could I shoot 9 faster than .40? Probably a tiny bit if I was being measured, but for practical purposes I shoot the two identically.

We also need to consider that a gun like my 27-ounce empty PX4 probably shoots about like the 21-ounce G19, despite the caliber increase.

,40 has a reputation as such a beastly, hard to handle round on Internet forums, but my mom and two ex girlfriends don't read Internet forums, so none of them have ever had any trouble with it.
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Old November 7, 2012, 11:01 PM   #149
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I've passed up all the pistols my agency issues and used to issue. Great ones like the HK P-7M13, Browning Hi-Power, HK USP, and now the Glock 22/23.

I prefered to carry my own pistols that are authorized. In no specific order, I've carried the following:
Colt Double Eagle,
Kimber Tactical Custom II,
Colt Defender,
Springfield XD45 compact,
XD9 subcompact,
XD40 subcompact,

and right now the XDm40 compact.

Current bug/off-duty is a SW 36 .38 special J-Frame.

My agency policy allows personal weapons as long as they are inspected, of quality manufacture, in 40SW or 45ACP (9mm possible for plain clothes guys), and you qualify with it.
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Old November 8, 2012, 10:30 PM   #150
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I was issued 3 guns in my 23 year carreer.

1987-1989 Smith & Wesson model 10 4" HB. 38 Special.

1989-1995 Sig Sauer P226 9mm

1995-2009 Sig Sauer P220 45 ACP

I liked and felt the most comfortable with the Sig P220. If I had my choice of duty gun today I would still pick one of the Sig P220 varients.
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