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Old November 1, 2012, 11:41 AM   #101
Elmer
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Our police and SWAT are using Kimber 1911's, Sig P226/229, and there is a growing movement with the new PPQ as the striker fire gun of choice. Glocks are being phased out over the last few years. No love for them at all.
The Chief and both of his officers should think about taking a class.....
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Old November 1, 2012, 01:03 PM   #102
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The Chief and both of his officers should think about taking a class.....

Think I know why you said that...Just curious..care to elaborate?
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Old November 1, 2012, 02:22 PM   #103
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sidearms, options-requirements....

There are a few basic requirements I'd use to select a duty weapon or LE sidearm;
Does it have or can it get 3 dot night sights?
Could it work well with gloves or in cold weather?
Can the semi auto pistol be used with ease with either hand(ambi features or able to convert).
Do other LE or federal agencies issue or allow it?
Does the pistol break down or be field-strip quickly w/o any tools or add-ons?(many modern or popular brands may NOT meet this standard).
Can the semi-auto pistol be used in rough conditions(snow, rain, dust, mud, etc). Safe queens are NOT good duty guns.
Do they have duty gear, holsters, spare parts, magazines, etc ready or available for the model or brand?

These are some of the points I use to buy or use a new semi-auto duty weapon.

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Old November 1, 2012, 02:59 PM   #104
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Am I alone in noticing that a lot of former cops mention revolvers? Since most police officers carry an ankle gun, etc I don't think fire power is such a big issue. The revolver with the cylinder and barrel has a much longer sighting plane and in the panic of a gun fight I think a revolver is the better tool. I'd opt for a 6" barrel if it could be carried. Skeet Skelton talked about a 5" barrel (if such was available). A 4" barrel is a concession to "carry ability".
If you get shot and "limp wrist" a semi auto it may get a stove pipe jam. I think a revolver would be more dependable. You can also use a flat bullet that ought to hit harder. I'd go with the .357 Magnum even though I also like the 44 Magnum. I'd go with the K frame since it is lighter weight and easier to carry. The L frame is more noticeable.
I've had two home invasions- that isn't much real life experience but on the first one I had a long barrel revolver and faced two perps and on the second I had a mid-sized semi-auto and faced 5 perps. The revolver was more noticeable, the perps stopped dead in their tracks and gave up, with the semi-auto the perps didn't initially see that I was armed and came a few feet towards me.
As far as reliability- I'd put semi-autos and high quality (S & W) revolvers on an even scale even though the revolver has a few more parts and IMHO a Gvt 45 1911 is probably more reliable. In any even, if I was to issue arms to a police force, a S&W Model 19 with a 5" barrel with SWC type heavy loads plus a back up ankle gun if more fire power was needed. If any officer wanted the option of a longer barrel- I'd let them have it.
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Old November 1, 2012, 09:45 PM   #105
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Fnp .45 with 15 round magazines. Thats some good .45 firepower right there!
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Old November 2, 2012, 11:09 AM   #106
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Probably a Nighthawk Custom GRP Recon 1911.

http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/index...grp-recon.html
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Old November 2, 2012, 12:31 PM   #107
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I started out with a lightly modified Colt Government Model .45 in 1984. That was in the days of IPSC and my next gun was a Colt Govt Model turned into a Wilson Master Grade 130. Carried that for many years.Dabbled for a very short while with a sig P220 and an HKP7M8. Back to the Wilson until 2001 or so when I was issued a Glock 35. About 2 years ago, we traded in the Glock 35's for Glock 22's.

I am allowed to carry any handgun I want, as long as its the Glock 22 with my badge number as the serial number that they issued to me.


We were allowed to buy our 35's when they traded them in for $350. If we retire, our Police Association buys us our duty gun, so, I will have two guns with my badge number as the serial number.

The Glock is a dandy all around cop gun. No complaints.
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Old November 2, 2012, 12:39 PM   #108
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I think its pretty interesting (as a fairly new shooter) to see the progression of duty pistols over the last 40 years or so. So, all things considered which of the guns below would you choose and why? Obviously this covers ALL trigger actions which all have their respective advantages/disadvantages.

-Colt/Springfield 1911
-Smith & Wesson revolver model 14 or 15 in .38 spl
-Beretta 92 series
-HK USP45 or 9mm
-Sig P220/P229
-Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 35 (9mm, .40, or .45)
-Springfield XD9 or XD40
Dual wielded Webley Mk. VI in .455.

Quote:
and why?
In the need of escape (unlikely though it be), one can exit under cover of a cloud of black powder smoke. "The Fog of Police Work", as it were.
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Old November 2, 2012, 01:16 PM   #109
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Am I alone in noticing that a lot of former cops mention revolvers?
Cause' a lot of us are old farts that worked when that's all we could carry.
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Old November 2, 2012, 01:26 PM   #110
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Thats funny and disturbing, so you are suggesting our chief officer and SWAT needs to take a class?? I wont even dignify that stupid comment with their list of training credentials and pristine qualifications.

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Elmer: The Chief and both of his officers should think about taking a class.....
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Old November 2, 2012, 07:04 PM   #111
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For uniform use, a 1911 is King-of-the-Hill. Anything made of plastic without a manual safety is a No Go.
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Old November 2, 2012, 07:38 PM   #112
Glenn Dee
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Another retired cop here...

I think the best option for a service pistol/revolver is choice. I'd like to have the choice to carry a reasonable service sized pistol, or a reasonable service sized revolver. Either would work in a police sized caliber.

The reason police departments dont allow revolvers these days is financial. They want only one training cycle, one training regimen. One caliber of ammo to buy in bulk, one training program.

My department allowed officers who owned revolvers to keep them as service weapons after the transition to auto's. The department also allows revolvers as off duty gun's. An officer can maintain qualification with either service pistol or service revolver or both. While no new service revolvers are accepted there is still selection of revolvers riding in their regulation holsters. S&W model 10, 65, 36, 640's, Ruger service six's in several configurations, SP 101's, Colt Metroploitan MkIII, Official Police, detective specials. As well as Glock 19's, S&W, and Sig DAO pistols. And maybe an occasional walther PP.

IMO training, and practice trump any particular gun. A department is better served by an officer who is carrying his choice of a firearm, with confidence , than one that he dont trust or like because it's cost effective.

I have carried a S&W model 10 or a Glock 19 as a service weapon during my career. I was happy with either.
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Old November 2, 2012, 07:55 PM   #113
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Quote. I've talked to a few old-timer cops, including one that taught my CCW class. Without a doubt, they'd all choose a .45 like the SIG P220 over a 9mm.

Considering that concealability isn't important, I can't say I'd argue with that choice.

Why. ? Have they shot someone with a 9mm and it was not effective. Or do they believe the myth that a .45 will knock someone of their feet.

It would make you wonder how the rest of the world is happy with the 9mm. There is a world outside the united states. Maybe the police in the USA are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
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Old November 2, 2012, 08:26 PM   #114
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Those old timer cops, like myself, worked when ammunition used in 9mm performed poorly. Today's better rounds blur the lines between calibers. While .45 still outperforms 9mm, it's not the night and day difference it used to be.

9mm's lower recoil, higher capacity, and lighter weight, can make it a reasonable choice, despite what those who haven't studied current wound ballistics think.
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Old November 3, 2012, 12:02 AM   #115
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I've talked to a few old-timer cops, including one that taught my CCW class. Without a doubt, they'd all choose a .45 like the SIG P220 over a 9mm
Not this one, 357 baby......
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Old November 3, 2012, 06:22 AM   #116
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It would make you wonder how the rest of the world is happy with the 9mm. There is a world outside the united states. Maybe the police in the USA are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
And my response to that is another quote:
Quote:
9mm Luger: Wildly popular all over the world... Mostly in countries where people don't carry guns, and cops don't actually have to shoot people with theirs.
That last quote was written in jest, but there is more than a grain of truth behind it. Regardless of what the ballistic gelatin or the calculations may say, stuff tends to die faster and with better reliability when you knock a bigger hole in it.

Personally I'd carry a 1911 .45 or a Glock 22 in .40 if I were a cop. The .40 is thrown in simply because it has a much better capacity than the 1911 and I think its a fairly decent compromise between 9mm and .45.
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Old November 3, 2012, 12:18 PM   #117
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Quote. 9mm Luger: Wildly popular all over the world... Mostly in countries where people don't carry guns, and cops don't actually have to shoot people with theirs.

That must mean that America is a more violent place than Europe if the police are having to shoot lots of people. PS i think they did shoot a few people with FMJ 9mm rounds during the war.
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Old November 3, 2012, 12:36 PM   #118
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They shot a few people with .32 FMJ during the war as well.

Must mean it's a good choice.

Quote:
Personally I'd carry a 1911 .45 or a Glock 22 in .40 if I were a cop. The .40 is thrown in simply because it has a much better capacity than the 1911 and I think its a fairly decent compromise between 9mm and .45.
The best .40 loads are almost identical in performance to the best 9mm loads.
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Old November 3, 2012, 12:56 PM   #119
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"The best .40 loads are almost identical in performance to the best 9mm loads"
No, .40 more gun. As usual I'll go with real world data from Buffalo Bore:

2. Item 24B/20 (+p+) 124gr. Jacketed Hollow Point
Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel------------1330 fps
Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel-------------------------------1304 fps
Glock 19, 4 inch barrel------------------------------------1296 fps

3. Item 24C/20 (+p+) 147gr. Jacketed Hollow Point
Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel----------1179 fps
Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel------------------------------1131 fps
Glock 19, 4.0 inch barrel---------------------------------1165 fps


Heavy .40 Smith & Wesson +P Ammo - 155 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point
a. Custom made 1911 with Nowlin (5inch barrel) = 1318 fps
b. Taurus PT 100 (4.9 inch barrel) = 1249 fps
c. Sig 229 (3.75 inch barrel) = 1221 fps
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Old November 3, 2012, 02:19 PM   #120
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As usual I'll go with real world data from Buffalo Bore:
Good luck with that.
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Old November 3, 2012, 03:20 PM   #121
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The best .40 loads are almost identical in performance to the best 9mm loads.
Nice try
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Old November 3, 2012, 04:02 PM   #122
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The best .40 loads are almost identical in performance to the best 9mm loads.
Even if that were true in some parallel universe, they still shoot... wait for it... .40 caliber bullets.
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Old November 3, 2012, 05:45 PM   #123
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Glock 19 - easy to carry on and off duty, chambered in an effective caliber and has A LOT of them, and is as close to 100% reliable as any machine comes.
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Old November 3, 2012, 06:29 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Charlie Fox View Post
Glock 19 - easy to carry on and off duty, chambered in an effective caliber and has A LOT of them, and is as close to 100% reliable as any machine comes.
They just approved the Glock 19 down here.

SIG Sauer 1911 XO - Custom Springfield MilSpec 1911 - Colt Gold Cup Trophy Model 1911 - Colt 70 Series 1911 - SIG Sauer P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - Walther PPQ - Glock 17 - Glock 34 - Glock 19 - Glock 21SF - Glock 22 - S&W Model 19 - H&k USP 40 - Remington Magnum 870 - Rock River AR-15 & Getting myself back in LE soon enough..Miss it.
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Old November 3, 2012, 06:40 PM   #125
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1) Wilson or other completely reliable 1911. 45 ACP + double safety system + SA trigger. . .all good
2) XD 45 or 40 - Similar to above but a cheaper platform and holds a few more rounds. Lack of thumb safety kind of sucks, but maybe no need.
3) Glock 21 or 22 - Both super weapons, but just require more focus on technique, especially reholstering.
4) S&W 19 - Utterly reliable and still packs a good punch. Possibly the best grip size flexibility of the three.
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